Elliot: Welcome back to the Informed Pregnancy and Parenting Podcast. I’m your host, pregnancy-focused chiropractor, Dr. Elliot Berlin.
You’ve tuned in to the “after” episode of a before and after birth story. My guest today was about 34 weeks pregnant last time we spoke to her. Now, she’s the proud mom of a bouncing baby. Rumer Willis, welcome back to the podcast.
Rumer: Thank you so much for having me again.
Elliot: I’m excited. I don’t really know the details of your birth story, so I’m excited to find them out with everybody else. But also, last time I spoke to you, things have changed a lot. First of all, your kitchen is probably finished.
Rumer: Yes. Thankful that construction in our house is done. That was very stressful, trying to make it all happen. I’m very grateful that it all came together before I wanted to have my home birth and it ended up happening, so I’m delighted.
Elliot: The nest. The nest was ready. Okay. Last time I spoke to you, you’re about 34 weeks. It seemed like you found pregnancy as much as you loved it and wanted it, and it was your life calling. It seemed like you found pregnancy to be difficult.
Rumer: You know what’s funny, is now looking back on it, I’m like, “Man, that was so easy.” Comparatively, to some other friends that I’ve heard of.
Elliot: Oh.
Rumer: Who have shared their stories with me. I realized I think because everything was so new. My sisters and I were talking even during my labor. It’s like, pain was no context, or it’s all of these new sensations but you have no context. You have no idea what’s happening. Everything when it happens seems kind of huge. But then, you just get used to it. The first time that I had my sciatica leg pain, I was like, “Oh, my gosh. I’m dying. Do I have a blood clot in my leg? What’s happening?” when I was four months pregnant. And then, by the end, I’m walking around the grocery store with my left leg on fire, but I’ve just gotten used to it. And so, I think I realized that it was just maybe being a little bit over dramatic at times.
Elliot: Well, maybe you didn’t expect it, and its sensations you never felt before.
Rumer: Yeah. I think emotionally, for me, was more challenging sometimes than the physical aspects. I think, physically, I had an incredible pregnancy. My legs didn’t swell. I truly, literally, just had a beach ball in my tummy. I didn’t really have any of those other things that some people struggle with. Maybe again, it’s that classic trip of after you’ve had the baby, you just forget. You forget your labor pain. You forget all the hard things so that the only way that people would actually have more kids.
Elliot: “I’d do it again,” yeah. How was the last month or so of pregnancy?
Rumer: It was challenging, but also so exciting. Because you just get to that point where it becomes really real and you’re just so excited to meet this little one. But then, even though my doula and my midwife both kept telling me, “Your due date is not real. Don’t listen to it. Don’t think about it like it’s the actual day that she’s going to come.” When it comes and goes, you still kind of go, “Oh, man. Okay, I’m really ready to have this baby out. I really want to meet this little person.”
Elliot: Yeah. I heard my wife say that. It’s more like the sell-by date, than the use-by date.
Rumer: Exactly. This might be woo-woo for some people, but you have to trust your kid’s timing. Maybe there’s a certain astrology thing that they want to come in on. Maybe there’s a particular day that they want to be born on and they’re waiting for it.
Elliot: Yeah. Even scientifically, the birth window called “term” is a five-week window from 37 to 42 weeks. There’s varying degrees of term. There’s “early term” term like term, but it’s not pre-term. Like those preemie babies before 37 weeks, or post-term after 42 weeks. So that’s a pretty big window. I think nature is not exact like that even if I’m baking cookies and it says 24 minutes. I’m going to wait till they’re fully baked even if it’s 25 minutes because I like it a little soft inside, but not a gooey center. Nobody wants a baby with a gooey center.
Rumer: You want them to be fully cooked.
Elliot: Yeah. It sounds like it was more of a mind challenge as you got closer, and then passed your due date.
Rumer: Yeah. It was, so much. A lot of my birth actually was so much mental, and was so much about overcoming my own fear, and so much of my own roadblocks rather than any roadblocks that were put in front of me, physically. I mean, obviously, yes, doing an unmedicated home birth is certainly a challenge in its own right, but so much of it was my own fear and the things that were holding me back.
Elliot: After you went past your due date, were you able to surrender into it? Did you feel sort of compelled to do things to try to help move the process along?
Rumer: I was doing everything. I was eating all the pineapple. I was eating all of the dates. I was trying to have sex. I was trying to do pretty much everything in every book that you could ever find. But, I think it was kind of a test from the universe and just patience. And also, trusting her again and just being okay with whatever timing was going to be right for her and not trying to rush.
Elliot: With all those things that you were doing, did you feel like any one of them was particularly helpful?
Rumer: Well, I thought that I was going into pre-labor at 36 weeks. Because I had my baby shower, and then I had gone out to a party and was out until 4 o’clock in the morning on my feet. My baby was super low. I’m calling my midwife, freaking out, because you can’t have a home birth before 37 weeks. And so, they’re trying to get me to do everything possible to kind of stop my labor. I guess it wasn’t totally really pre-labor. I think I was just having really crazy Braxton Hicks, which I did for pretty much 36 weeks till the end of my pregnancy. Like, all day long.
Elliot: Oh, wow.
Rumer: It was pretty wild.
Elliot: I imagine it also plays a mind trick on you thinking that, “Oh, it must be coming because I’m having contractions.”
Rumer: All the time. Yeah. Especially as you’re getting closer and you’re going, “Okay. What’s this new sensation?” Because again, you have no context for what real labor will feel like. Even though someone can say to you, “Just trust me. You’ll know when you’re actually in labor.” In your head, you’re going, “Okay. Well, but maybe this is. This kind of feels stronger,” or “This feels intense.” But, they were right. When you’re actually in labor, it’s very different.
Elliot: Let’s get to there. How did your labor start, and how far past your date were you?
Rumer: I was 40 plus five, I think. I went to the farmer’s market. When I got home, I realized that one of my cats was out.
Elliot: Like, escaped?
Rumer: Yes, had escaped through a window. Because the construction that we had going on were painting in the nursery, and someone had left a window open. And so, I got back and I’m freaking out. I’m just going, “Oh, my gosh. If my beloved cat is gone and she doesn’t have her collar on, I was like I’m going to freak out.” She dies, like there’s coyotes. She’s a goner. I’m walking up and down the street, can’t find her. I call my partner, I say, “You have to come home. You have to help me find the cat.” He pulls up in his car. It’s about maybe 30 minutes later. I walked down the street and I see her maybe four or five houses down. I go sprinting full speed, fully nine months pregnant.
Elliot: Oh, my gosh.
Rumer: I’m going faster. He’s driving next to me, and I’m just running faster than the car. I scoop her up and bring her home. Around 4 a.m., I started having contractions like five minutes apart-ish. My doula came over. I think I lost my mucus plug at like 6 a.m.
Elliot: So, your doula came over means that that felt different to you than all the Braxton Hicks you had leading up to.
Rumer: Yeah. She didn’t come over that night. This is — fine with you, guys. I called her and I said started to feel things ramp up a little bit. So then, Monday morning, I went into Dr. Crane’s office to see if I was dilated, see if I had anything going on. I was half a centimeter dilated and 30% effaced, so nothing really going on. But, the baby at least had gotten a lot lower because I had been swimming at my mom’s house for a while, trying to get the baby to stop my contractions before when I was 36, 37 weeks and she had lifted way back up. And so, now, all of these things to try and get her back down.
Elliot: Back down to your pelvis.
Rumer: Yeah. I went home after I went to see Dr. Crane, and I was a bit discouraged because I was just so, so ready to kind of just get everything going. So, I go and I take a walk with my boyfriend, and we walked quite far actually. We went on a hike and I walked. That night is when things kind of really kicked off. That’s when about 4 a.m., I think my doula got there. My whole family was there. My mom and my two sisters had come over. Because I said I started thinking that something might be going on, even though that’s something I feel like I was saying every day towards the end.
Elliot: Wait, so they were over before you went to bed?
Rumer: Yeah. Because I don’t know I just wanted them here. I think I was feeling like, “Oh, man. This is kind of getting real throughout the day.” I felt like my contractions had been getting a little bit more intense, and we’re all just kind of a crazy tribe anyway.
Elliot: All right. Sunday, you sprint for the cat. Monday, baby’s down but not much changed cervically. Did you guys talk about or do a membrane sweep?
Rumer: No, we didn’t.
Elliot: It was just not on your radar?
Rumer: No, because I really wanted to trust in her timing. If I had gone past or the things that were not progressing at like 41 plus five, something like that, then I would have done something. But, I really wanted to just let my body kind of do its own thing and not rush anything.
Elliot: Okay. Still, things started to pick up that day and you had your whole woman tribe come over.
Rumer: Exactly.
Elliot: And then, you go to sleep, but wake up at 4-ish in the morning.
Rumer: Well, I was up.
Elliot: Oh, you never went to sleep?
Rumer: Not really.
Elliot: Okay. They just continued to pick up through the early hours of morning?
Rumer: Yeah. I’d gotten some body work that night. And then, I tried to rest a little bit but my contractions were just kind of coming what felt like to me more regularly. And so, I was in and out of the bath. I was talking to my sisters. And then, finally, at one point, everyone had gone to sleep and I was just in the bath by myself. I was like, “All right, here we go.” I tried to say a little prayer to myself, try to talk to my baby, and yeah. There’s a photo of me actually holding my mucus plug when it came out at 6 a.m., and I look like the happiest kid you’ve ever seen. Since I was just so excited that that meant something was actually going on. I was like, “Yes! Finally!” I know it. At least, means that something’s happening.
Elliot: It’s hilarious. Okay. Let’s take a little break. When we come back, we’ll find out how things progress.
[Break]
Elliot: Welcome back. We’re talking to Rumer Willis, and things are picking up. I mean, you have your mucus plug, partial success and victory. You said one thing that triggered in my mind, which is that you were just saying a prayer and connecting with your baby. I know that when we talk during the pregnancy, that was something that you were hoping to work on. That you found it harder to connect during pregnancy than you thought you might.
Rumer: Yeah. I think before I knew she was a little girl, it just felt so kind of surreal. It still feels surreal sometimes when I look at her and I go, “I grew you. You’re mine.” It’s still high. I still sometimes can’t believe that I made this tiny little person.
Elliot: I feel the same. It never gets old. For me, it’s a little bit over 20 years, and it just never gets old. Like, the miracle of it is mind-boggling.
Rumer: I mean, I know everyone talks about it. But, truly, truly the love that you feel for this little person, I would do anything. Everything about her. Her little butt. I thought her poops or her spitting up would be gross to me, I love it all.
Elliot: It’s also weird. Because this is the person that gave you all that burning sciatica, and everything else, but still they come out and we love them with everything.
Rumer: Amazing. You know what? If I ever have moments where I’m going “Oh, man. My nipples hurt,” or she was having a hard time latching, or “I’m tired,” I stopped myself and I go, “But look at what I have. Look at this little being that I have wished and hoped for for so long.” That makes everything, even the sleepless nights or — mind you, I have like probably one of the easiest babies ever. I’m ridiculously lucky. She is glorious. It makes even any of the hard moments just, it doesn’t matter.
Elliot: Yeah. All right. Let’s get back into your story here. In the tub, you got the plug. The family’s over. Your doula comes over. Your doula is also your mentor, right? You did do the training with her?
Rumer: Yeah, Lori. Lori Bregman, who is incredible. My whole birth team, truly. These women that helped bring my little girl into the world safely, I will love them forever, forever.
Elliot: What does Lori do when she comes over?
Rumer: She wanted to just kind of, I think really see for herself kind of where I was at. See what I sounded like. See how consistent my contractions were because we actually started timing them. For a little while, during the night, they were probably five, six minutes apart. Not perfectly in that rhythm where you’re moving towards active labor, but definitely getting close. And then, I think I just got really tired, and so my contractions kind of stopped. And so, I slept for a little while. By the time I woke up in the morning — Lori stayed all night with us. By the time I woke up in the morning, they were more like 10, 15 minutes apart. I was so discouraged. I let all of that fear kind of come up. I started going to myself, “Oh, my gosh. If I have to do a whole ‘nother night of this, if this is going to be how long…” Just going into that kind of spiral that I think I understand why then a lot of women end up with an epidural, and going to the hospital. Because again, it’s pain with no context.
Elliot: Right. You have no idea where you’re on the map, on the timeline. Can you describe, do you remember what those contractions felt like overnight? Where did you feel them and what was the sensation like?
Rumer: I think that’s what was so confusing to me about them is that, when you’re feeling the Braxton Hicks, and people describe contractions. They go, “Yeah, your belly will squeeze.” You’re going, “Oh, well. My uterus is now almost to my rib cage, so maybe it will be painful in my whole stomach;” but it’s really not. My belly would tighten and that’s uncomfortable, but the pain, actual pain, was really in my lower, where you would experience period cramps.
Elliot: In terms of the intensity?
Rumer: Those I would say like a 5 or 6.
Elliot: Okay.
Rumer: I only say that because I know that the ones later were…
Elliot: You could say that in retrospect.
Rumer: Yeah.
Elliot: Okay. So, a little discouraged in the morning, things have petered out and only picked up slowly. And then, what happens after that?
Rumer: Then, we all went to go take a walk, which was great. I come back and nothing’s really happening.
Elliot: We? All of you?
Rumer: Oh, yeah. My doula, my mom, my sisters, and my partner.
Elliot: Okay.
Rumer: I’m a Leo, so I like I love the group energy. I know some people would much prefer probably to birth alone, have it be quiet. I need the energy.
Elliot: You like the crowd.
Rumer: Okay. So, you come back, nothing. And then, Lori looks at me and she goes, “You know, I think I might go home.” I realized in that moment, that I am someone who loves to succeed and thrive under pressure. Because I tell you what, not five minutes later, all of a sudden, my contractions start picking up again. It’s like, my body and my mind went, “Well, I’m not doing this a whole another night again. She’s not going home. We’re doing this today. Let’s go.”
Elliot: Wow! You took the challenge.
Rumer: It just happened. And so, all of a sudden, they start coming in really intense. Maybe seven minutes apart. If that five to seven minutes apart, and way more intense. My midwife comes over around 4:00, and checks me. She says that I’m 100% effaced and 2 centimeters dilated. When I tell you, I started crying and sobbing with delight. I was so happy. Because I realized that everything that I had gone through the night before was just to get all of the effacement.
Elliot: Is this Tuesday now?
Rumer: This is Tuesday.
Elliot: At 4 p.m.?
Rumer: Tuesday at 4 p.m.
Elliot: Okay. To recap. You chase the cat on Sunday.
Rumer: Yes.
Elliot: Sunday night, nah. And then, Monday morning, baby’s down but not too much progress. Then, throughout the day, you feel progress. The whole tribe comes over. Some surges overnight. Then, you fall asleep. Nothing in the morning. Go for the tribe block. And then, Lori threatens, “Hey, I’m just going to go home.” You’re like, “blah, blah, blah” I mean, full gear.
Rumer: And then, I was sitting with everyone outside and I was just crying. I was just saying, “I don’t know if I can do this. This is the birth that I want. I want to do it at home, but I just don’t know if I can do it.” It was a really kind of this psycho-spiritual experience. Because I feel like the fear was so much more than just the fear of this experience. It was like everything I’ve ever been afraid of. All of the times that I thought, “Oh, I’m too scared,” or “I’m too much of a weenie to do big scary things.” I feel like I heard Hillary actually say on this podcast when she was saying, “I’m afraid, but I can do big scary things.” I think it was her. I could be wrong, but yeah.
Elliot: I think so too.
Rumer: I just kept remembering that. I kept thinking to myself, I’ve always looked at myself like, “Oh, I’m just such a fraidy cat,” or “I don’t know if I can do this.” And so, I think I was working through that old lens of perception that I had of myself.
Elliot: Because you have your whole crowd around you. Are there things that people are saying or doing that are helping you sort of combat that, or tone those voices down?
Rumer: Honestly, a lot of it was just when I would have a contraction, I would kind of talk to myself. I would say, “It’s okay that you’re afraid. It’s okay that this is a big scary thing. It’s okay that you’re afraid.” I just started like talking to my little girl. Not my daughter, but like the little version of myself. Trying to just let her know that it’s okay that she was scared. The birth is scary. That birth can be beautiful, and it can be so many different things. It can also be scary to not know what’s going on. And so, I kind of just let myself cry. Whatever emotion was coming forward during each surge in contraction, I just let it come forward. And then, my midwife left. We were all chatting for quite some time. She left. And then, at around 6:00, I got into the bathtub. My doula to put me on the peanut ball for a while, which is like the seventh circle of hell.
Elliot: Oh, you didn’t like it?
Rumer: Oh, my God. Doing contractions where you cannot move, to me like I 100% understand why women who have to be on their backs or in a hospital and not move, end up with an epidural. Because if I hadn’t been able to move through my contractions, and really like glow with them, there’s no way.
Elliot: Wow. Okay. The idea was she was trying to get you a little bit more open?
Rumer: Yeah, and help the baby move down into the right position. Because she was a little high. By the way, my water still had not broken.
Elliot: Oh, interesting. Okay. So, 4 p.m. is when you’re 100% and 2 centimeters. You were okay with your midwife leaving though.
Rumer: Yeah. Because everyone didn’t seem to think that anything was going to happen anytime soon.
Elliot: Okay. But, that didn’t like put you into the next cure?
Rumer: I think maybe it did a little bit. I trusted that she would come back when it was go time.
Elliot: Okay. And then, 6:00, you get in the tub.
Rumer: Yeah. 6:00, I got into my bathtub. The contractions were getting really intense. Like, getting to that point where it’s overwhelming pain. The best way I could describe it was — I had a few of them where it just feels like that kind of pain where you feel like you can’t breathe and you’re it makes you kind of it takes your breath away.
Elliot: In that tub?
Rumer: Yeah.
Elliot: Because a lot of people feel like the tab sort of helps calm them or ease some of the discomfort. Did you not have that experience?
Rumer: It absolutely does. But, what I realized is I was in so much fear still, and I was bracing, and I wasn’t working with my surges. I wasn’t working with the contractions because I was just holding on so tight. I wasn’t really letting myself just work with him. And then, I don’t know what happened, what came over me. In the bathtub, I start moving in the water. I don’t know, some sort of sexual mermaid or something. I don’t even know. Just kind of like moving my body. Using the whole wave of the contraction and moving my whole body with the wave. I was holding under the sides of the tub and literally, moving my hips around doing all of that. Suddenly, everything shifted.
Elliot: That was just the instinct?
Rumer: Yeah.
Elliot: Okay. Shifted how?
Rumer: I somehow started moving with the contractions. It took away so much of the pain. I mean, they were still intense. But, it was like, I let go. I actually let myself surrender to the experience to what was happening. My body, it was like it just downloaded what to do.
Elliot: Wow. Is anybody with you at that point?
Rumer: Yeah. I think my sisters had gone to the grocery store to get supplies, and tasty snacks, and treats. It was my mom, my doula, and my partner.
Elliot: Wow. Okay. Well, I think that sometimes you can see that transition where you’re biting your surges, and it looks kind of violent. And then, at some point, you relax into one or two, and you realize, “Oh, wait a second. This is okay.” When you start to surrender to them, it just almost looks peaceful all of a sudden.
Rumer: It’s beautiful. My family took videos, and it looks unbelievable. I look like I’m some sort of synchronized swimming, or like a mermaid. It’s great.
Elliot: Okay. And then, I don’t know, for some people, that’s where time just disappears.
Rumer: It really did. That was around like 6:30 maybe, 6:00, 6:30. So then, after a while, I got out of the bath. I got into this rhythm with my partner, where I was laying on the floor, I had a pillow under my head, a blanket on top of me, and a peanut ball between my legs in between the contractions. We got it down to this system where I would say, “Okay, babe.” And then, I would go from laying on my side, he would pull the blanket off, pull the peanut ball out. I would get on my hands and knees. I would start moving in kind of figure eights. Sometimes, either my doula or my partner would be shaking. That was a lifesaver. For anyone who wants to try that, someone just shaking your butt and your hips, is like a heavenly thing during a contraction of birth. We were doing that for I don’t know maybe 45 minutes to an hour. And then, I started feeling like I needed to push, which was crazy. Literally, all of a sudden, when I would have a contraction, my body literally just started doing that like, “Oh, my God” kind of thing.
Elliot: Ejection reflex.
Rumer: Is that what that is?
Elliot: I think so. You’re not consciously pushing.
Rumer: No.
Elliot: Your body’s just doing it.
Rumer: Yeah. My body literally just. And then, they were like, “Wait, wait, wait! We don’t know how dilated you are. Hold on.” It’s all they said. I’m going, “Okay. I’m fine.” You just have that moment. I was trying not to push too hard, but a little bit. And again, my water still has not broken at this point.
Elliot: Oh, yes. Okay. You’re just on the floor, not in water.
Rumer: Yeah. I’m just on my hands and knees. We call my midwife and my doula like, “I think you need to come back. It’s like right now.” She gets there. I would say maybe like 25 minutes. My doula had been looking at my purple line. For those of you that don’t know what that is, I am still a little bit unclear, maybe you can give more context. I guess you get a purple line down the back of your butt crack that sometimes people can look at and have an idea of how dilated you are.
Elliot: I have no idea.
Rumer: Okay.
Elliot: I’m not versed in the purple line.
Rumer: That’s what my doula at least told me.
Elliot: That’s interesting.
Rumer: Yeah. She said she thought that I had progressed a lot. My midwife gets here and checks me. She said that I was 8 centimeters. I dilated in maybe like an hour and a half from 2 to 8, which is why it was so crazy.
Elliot: Oh, wow. Okay. I feel like we should take a break. I need a break. We’ll be right back for the rest of the story.
[Break]
Elliot: Welcome back. We are talking to Rumer Willis. Things are picking up big time in your birth story. In the tub, you start to kind of just naturally move. You find a rhythm. You feel more comfortable. You get out. You and your partner have a rhythm. And then, you suddenly feel like, “I’m pushing.”
Rumer: Yeah. I’m trying not to desperately. Because everyone’s like, “You got to wait. Hold on.” And so, my midwife comes back. I’ve been in the tub for maybe an hour or something. She checks me and I’m about 8 centimeters. I dilated from 2 to 8 in about an hour.
Elliot: Wow. Fast-moving train. Still water intact.
Rumer: Water still intact. We moved me into the birth tub. I was like, “I need to push. Can I?” She said that I should just listen to my body. And so, I started pushing a little bit. And then, she was checking me and felt my water bag bulging, but still not popping, which was wild. And so, I was like, “Well, should we break it?” “Do you want to break it?” She goes, “Well, you can.” I’m like, “What?” I was like, “Are you serious?” Okay. Because I reached my finger up there, and I’m feeling and it was crazy. I could totally feel this little bag.
Elliot: Like what? Like a Ziploc?
Rumer: It feels like a water balloon.
Elliot: Oh, wow.
Rumer: But, with like a bit tougher skin. It’s wild! And so, she just said, “Okay. On the next contraction, just push against it with your finger,” and I popped it. I think there’s a photo of me and I just have this look of shock and surprise on my face. Because it’s a different sensation when the water bag is pushing against your cervix to when the baby’s head is.
Elliot: Things got more intense.
Rumer: Yeah. I’m kind of making these wild noises like a lion. And then, everyone’s kind of reminding me to not waste the energy, and to really just do what I’m sure everyone says, which is just to use that power and push the noise down. And so, I’m doing that. At one point, I couldn’t do any of the contractions on my back. It felt so counterintuitive to me. It made it way more painful. Even in the tub, it just wasn’t working. It was all in my hands and knees. At one point, I remember I tried to lay on my back just because I wanted to rest in between. And then, during a contraction, everybody grabs my legs and I just started screaming at them. I was like, “No! Everybody get off of me. Let go!”
Elliot: It sounds like the sensation’s a lot different. Can describe what you’re feeling, either during the surges and also in between or with a push?
Rumer: Well, it feels like you’re incredibly constipated, and that you’ve found a toilet, and then you’ve started to try and poop. But, once the baby starts coming down, it’s like you can’t stop. Like you’re on the train. You can’t suddenly go, “Oh, I guess it’s not working right now. I’ll drink some water and try again later.” You know what I mean? It’s just so much pressure.
Elliot: Pressure, like in the rectum?
Rumer: Yeah. I would say rectal pressure, and then pressure on your cervix. Again, I think that there’s a weird memory wipe, like “Men in Black” that happens after you give birth.
Elliot: The flashy, flashy thing.
Rumer: Because I remember all of it. I remember all of the details. But, the physical sensation, some of it now is lost to me.
Elliot: Does it come back when you watch the video?
Rumer: Sometimes, yeah. I really remember the contractions, but the pushing — once you start getting to a certain pushing phase, it’s really just so much pressure and stretching. I was doing the same thing in the water that I was doing in the bathtub earlier, which was moving through my contraction. That was really helping. My midwife kept checking her heart rate, and it had dropped once. She said — because I’m also a first-time mom, she was like, “I think I’m going to have you get out of the tub.” Because I wasn’t getting enough leverage.
Elliot: Yeah.
Rumer: I sat on a birth stool, which is not a stool. It is a piece of metal. I looked at her and I said, “Where’s the seat?” She said, “There is no seat.”
Elliot: —
Rumer: I said, “Okay. Cool.” Because at that point, and I’m sure any mother knows if someone says, “Your baby’s heart rate’s dipping,” you’re like, “Cool. What do we got to do?” You’ll do anything. And so, I sit on this stool and I start pushing. My midwife is like, “Listen. It’s a really tight squeeze down there, so I’m going to have to help stretch your tissue.” At that point, I’m just like, “Okay. Cool.” It’s definitely not comfortable, but I just want to make sure she comes out safely. I had kind of had a feeling that it might be tight down there because I could just feel in the last couple weeks of pregnancy that the pressure from holding up the baby that all of my muscles and my pelvic floor had really tightened. I probably should have done a little bit more pelvic floor work earlier. I would highly recommend that to anybody in pregnancy, really just checking that out early.
And so, her heart rate dipped again. She was like, “Look.” She kind of just locked eyes with me and she said, “Listen. We need to get her out.” She said, “I can cut you.” I said, “Okay, listen. If that’s what you need to do for her to come out safely, then that’s fine.” And then, literally, I had a contraction. Her head was out with one push, and then her whole body was out with it.
Elliot: Oh wow. Okay.
Rumer: It’s like under pressure.
Elliot: “What? No. Here we go.”
Rumer: I was like, “Okay.”
Elliot: Oh, wow. So many questions. Were you fearful? Was that a scary moment?
Rumer: No. It was like I was in this other universe and I had just been transported to that place where I don’t even know. My doula, Lori, talks about it that when you are in transition and how you kind of just go to this other place. I think at that point it was like this warrior, mama, lion part of me came forward. It was like whatever I need to do, it didn’t matter. By the time I got on the stool, that’s the thing. Like, even her hands stretching me, anything. I feel like I had kind of moved past feeling the physical sensations of pain. I mean, yes, it was painful but I couldn’t even tell you that her head coming out was the most painful part. You know what I mean? I feel like the earlier contractions were more painful than that. Because at that point, you’re in it. You’re committed. Because I was so close to meeting my baby.
Elliot: Yeah. So, when her head came out, did you reach down and feel the head?
Rumer: It happened so fast, I couldn’t.
Elliot: It was like boom, head, body.
Rumer: Literally, it was like I pushed a little bit. Like, I pushed — well, I didn’t push a little bit. I pushed harder than I’ve ever probably, but it was literally like I pushed her head was out. I pushed again and her whole body was out.
Elliot: Oh, wow.
Rumer: Whole body was out.
Elliot: Oh, my gosh. Okay.
Rumer: There was no pause. There was no pause in between like, “Oh!” It wasn’t one of those moments where it was, “Oh, your head is out.”
Elliot: “Let’s wait for the next contraction.”
Rumer: No.
Elliot: It was like, “Boom! Boom!” Wow, that’s intense. I mean, do you remember the mind and or body experience right when you got to hold her?
Rumer: I mean it was incredible. My midwife and my partner caught her. It was the wildest thing. She had a cord wrapped around her neck, but it was also wrapped around her body in like almost like a prom sash.
Elliot: Wow.
Rumer: We had four hands under there, under the birth stool. I’m going, “Give me the baby. Give the baby.” It had wrapped around in this wonky way. They had to navigate for that.
Elliot: Entangled.
Rumer: But then, as soon as they untangled her, she was in my arms. They had me hold her upside down for a second because there was a bit of meconium, the fluid that came out. After that, it was the most ecstatic, joyful moment of my entire life. I just started sobbing with joy. I have some of the most beautiful photographs of it of just me looking at her, and looking at my sisters, and looking at my mom and my mom holding me. My sister actually told me something later that I didn’t even realize I said. I looked at Louetta at one point, and I said, “I missed you so much.” I thought that was so sweet because it truly was like this moment of, “Oh, yes! We’re back together.”
Elliot: Oh, wow.
Rumer: It’s like, “Oh, yes. This person who I’ve known and I’ve been waiting for forever, here you are.”
Elliot: Wow. That’s so beautiful. I’m like tearful myself, trying to picture all the people around you must have been bawling, too.
Rumer: It was incredible. It was so powerful to have truly like such gratitude. The way that my mom, especially, just held space for me, and my sisters, and to have just this — and I love my partner. He was incredible the whole time. For me, because I’m so close with my family, to have this lineage of females, in this tribe of women around me bringing in the next generation, and being able to witness me going through that process and bringing her into the world was like something that I will treasure for the rest of my life.
Elliot: So beautiful. I remember you said something like the fact that your mom had three unmedicated births and that Lori kind of told you that that’s like your imprint now, that’s your ancestral imprint. And so, to have your mom there in the flesh also to back up that imprint, it just seems so amazing. All right.
In a nutshell, baby’s about five weeks old now. Lou. Lou and Rue, oh!
Rumer: Lou and Rue. I had to tell you one last thing because it’s pretty brilliant.
Elliot: Oh, anything.
Rumer: I thought so, at least. Here I am, I’ve just given birth to this tiny little girl. I step up off of the birth stool. Everyone’s like, “Okay. Here, go sit on the couch.” I go to try and sit down. I cannot it’s just still too much pressure. And so, I’m going, “Okay, guys. Hold on. I got to get up.” I literally have Louetta wrapped in a towel in one hand and I say, “I think I got to get the placenta out, you guys.” And so, before I can even sit down or do anything — and this is like maybe, I don’t know, two minutes, three minutes after she’s born; five at the most. I start walking back over to where the birth stool is, and I literally just pushed my placenta out into my hand. It comes out so fast and nobody knows what’s going on. One of my midwives literally just happened to be underneath to help me catch it. She was like, “Whoa! Whoa!”
Elliot: Wow! Okay. You didn’t even need to be challenged for that one.
Rumer: No. It was so nice though to have everything out of me. I couldn’t sit down until everything was out.
Elliot: It was such a cool — you got your mucus plug, you pop your water, caught your placenta.
Rumer: I mean it was very primal. It was like really feral.
Elliot: It sounds like it.
Rumer: It was really primal. I felt like I was connecting to this deep power in the core of my being that has always been there, but that I cut off access to a long time ago that somehow got activated during this experience because it was intense and wild and just magical.
Elliot: Yeah. I have two questions left in my mind. In a nutshell, I would just say the first five weeks of motherhood have been?
Rumer: Like the greatest gift of my life. I’ve never loved anything more in my life. She’s my favorite person. It’s challenging. Again, I feel like I’m saying this I realized that I am very privileged to be able, to take the time off to be able to spend with her. I know that that’s such a gift that not everyone has the ability to do and I’m so grateful. Because this time is unbelievable with her. Being able to exclusively breastfeed and that’s been going amazingly well, which I know that also some people struggle with. I feel like I have such an incredible support system of my family, and my partner, and my doula, and my midwife. I found someone who I didn’t have anyone help us at night or anything like that. But, I did have someone cook me a lot of Ayurvedic meals in the very beginning. That was super helpful just for my digestion, for hers. To not have to think about it, I would recommend that over anything else.
Elliot: It’s a good gift registry request. My last question was in hindsight, I guess it’s two parts. Is there anything you learn from doing it that you think, “I never could have learned until I did it.” Part B is if you were to do it again, is there anything that you would want to do differently?
Rumer: I think exactly, even what you said, that I just think that if I ever questioned myself again of, “Oh, I wonder if I can do this?” I had an unmedicated home birth and brought my daughter into the world. You know what I mean? Pop my own water bag. I did all of these things that are incredible. I brought this beautiful little girl into the world, at my house, with my family. I think I just faced so many fears that I feel like now, if I ever need a reminder it’s like, “You can do anything. Why are you questioning that?”
Elliot: Yeah. You saved the kitty.
Rumer: Yeah. I sprinted on the street, nine months pregnant.
Elliot: It’s interesting. I did do some work in emergency medicine, in ambulances. As a result, emergency rooms. A few times — I was young. I was 19, 20. A few times, I saw people at the end of life. Sometimes, even one case, a very young person. It’s interesting to see how in those instances, the last request was, “I want my mom.” I don’t think that ever goes away. Like, the insane way that you grow us. Women grow as in your body and bring us into the world, and all the nurturing that even happens before that bringing us into the world, through your body, and feed us with your body, and just that unconditional love that you have. Like, the anything you would do, and the power that you get, and now knowing that there’s nothing you can’t do. It’s the reason I get it. Mother’s Day is like a month the planning and everything under the sun, and Father’s Day is a tie. It makes sense to me.
Rumer: I think, to your second question. I feel like if I did it again, which I shouldn’t say if I’m definitely doing this again. Like, I’d do it again tomorrow. I think I would just remember to enjoy being pregnant. I miss feeling her kick inside of me. I really do. Even though there were moments of challenge physically and emotionally during pregnancy, now that I’m looking back, I love being pregnant. It’s amazing. This energy and this connection that you feel to this being, it’s such a privilege.
Elliot: It’s a paradigm shift. Well, a huge congratulations to you. I’m so happy for you and thank you for sharing your beautiful story with us. Probably, work seems like a million miles away, but you are working on some things. What can we expect from Rumer Willis in the near future?
Rumer: Well, I’d really love to share so much of the things, especially around pregnancy and motherhood that really supported me. I had an antacid that literally saved my life for the last three months, and I’m kind of creating a collection, and kind of going to create some guides to each trimester, and then postpartum. Just things that I want to share of my experience. I really want to create a community and a collective brain of motherhood. Similarly to kind of like what you’re doing to just share information. Because I think it’s so important. I think people used to do it so much. Especially with women, we all used to share information and share stories. It’s so important to be really honest and to share even the things that you think are gross or whatever it is, just in service of helping other people along the journey.
Elliot: Yeah. I remember there’s that book, “What to Expect When You’re Expecting.” I remember someone doing like a workshop called, “What to REALLY Expect When You’re Expecting.” Based on your description of pushing, I feel like you hold nothing back.
Rumer: No. You got to tell people the real deal.
Elliot: It’s awesome, yeah. There’s a lot of pieces in the puzzle of trying to help create that community and that flow of information, vital information, that people need. I’m excited that you’re joining the puzzle.
Rumer: Thank you so much.
Elliot: Where can we find you online?
Rumer: I would say on my Instagram, which is just my name.
Elliot: Rumer Willis. Instagram, @RumerWillis. I will see you there, or Dr. Berlin, @D-O-C-T-O-R-B-E-R-L-I-N.
Elliot: Welcome to the Informed Pregnancy and Parenting Podcast. I’m your host, pregnancy-focused chiropractor, Dr. Elliot Berlin.
My guest today is a health-conscious, fashion-forward, multi-talented artist. She is best known for her work in film and television, as well as her powerful voice as a singer/songwriter. She’s also a new mother-to-be and is currently training to be a labor support doula. We’re thrilled to have her here with us to share her journey today.
In this first part of the two-part series, we’ll delve into her childhood, career, relationship, health and wellness, pregnancy, plans for birth, and her business “Rumer Has It.” Rumer Willis, welcome to the podcast.
Rumer: Thank you for having me.
Elliot: Oh, my gosh! What an honor. Okay. You’re incredible on a million levels and you have a lot going on. I want to cover all of it, but let’s start to the beginning. What was growing up like?
Rumer: Oh, my gosh. I feel so lucky to have been exposed to so much as a kid. Especially, now, as I’m in this transition to motherhood. I feel even though I say “missed out” on certain things, I still have to sometimes count basic math on my fingers, or my essay writing format is maybe not great from not being in school as much, I got to travel and meet so many people, and have so many experiences. I don’t know, I feel it kind of nurtured this goofiness and silliness and curiosity in me that I really want to help cultivate in my kids.
Elliot: Oh, my gosh. I think we all need some of that.
Rumer: Yeah.
Elliot: I think the world will be a much more relaxed, better place if we had more goofiness and silliness. Did you homeschool?
Rumer: We were primarily based in Idaho. I grew up in Sun Valley, Idaho. And then, when my parents would work, we would go and be with them on set. We would be in school for a couple months in Idaho. And then, all of a sudden, we were in the Czech Republic for a couple weeks. Or we were — my mom was doing “GI Jane,” we were in Fort Lauderdale in Florida. There were all these different weird places.
Elliot: That seems like three completely separate set of textbooks.
Rumer: Oh, yeah. It’s like, you go into all these different places. We stayed in a house that was haunted. There were gravestones outside of the house in one place we stayed. It was wild, but I’m so grateful and feel so lucky that I got to experience so much.
Elliot: We homeschooled our kids for two years. I felt like the first year was an experiment. We had looked into it as, “Maybe this will be more economical than send our kids to private school,” and it wasn’t. We realized it wasn’t going to be before we did it. But once we started to explore the families that were doing it, we felt so in love with it. We did it. And then, we realized, “Okay. It takes six months to get the swing of things.” We didn’t really get a full experience so we did it for one year.
But the coolest things were like instead of opening up a book to learn how the post office works, literally going to the post office and saying to them, “I’m trying to teach my kids how mail works. Is there anything you can show them? Can we see anything about the process?” They would take you in the back and you could just see all the sorting machines, and all the people working, what they’re doing. There was a supervisor there was just more than excited to show help from the minute the mail gets there, or the package gets there. All the processing, and how it goes to the trucks, and which ones are rooted to airplanes. It was just like a whole different experience. It sounds like that’s how you learned about life. So, you might have to count on your fingers, but I mean invaluable kind of life lessons.
Rumer: Well, I do think it’s important. To your point, I would have loved in school to have had, “This is how you apply for,” I don’t know. Like, how to balance your checkbook. Not that people don’t check books that much anymore, but this is how you create a budget for yourself, this is maybe teaching you about nutrition, or just so many life skills that I feel like I would love to have had included in a curriculum that I now would hopefully try and find a way to supplement for my kids in some way.
Elliot: Well, I mean pros and cons to both. But, most people get the didactic education, not so much real life. Maybe you were heavy on the real-life side and not so good [INDISCERNIBLE 05:04]. Perhaps a balance. A balance in there.
Rumer: Exactly.
Elliot: Okay. So then, how did you get started in your career?
Rumer: I think just from growing up on sets. It was all I ever wanted, was to just do what my parents did. Because it just was this entryway into this world that you could be anything, you could completely transform yourself. Whether it be with a wig or a costume. It’s like a very high-class version of getting to play pretend as a kid. There was something about it even from a young age that I just was so drawn to. I’ve always sung, and was putting on shows, and I think that’s just kind of part of my personality. I’m such a performer. Even the way I talk. I talk with my hands so much. And so, I couldn’t imagine anything else when I was a kid growing up. And so, I got to be in a couple different movies with them when I was growing up.
But, they really wanted me to finish school, and not do a GED or something like that, which I’m glad on one hand. But, I also wish that I could have started learning the tools and the craft of acting from a younger age so that I could have really implemented that discipline in myself. As I got into my 20s, and was a little like, “Whoa!”
Elliot: What point did you start to study the craft?
Rumer: I went to about a semester of college at USC. I just wasn’t happy. I just was feeling really unfulfilled, so I kind of came back to my mom. I said, “Listen. Can I create my own school that I’m accountable to?” And so, I got a job working at Marc Jacobs as a salesperson. And then, I did singing, acting, and piano lessons, like twice a week. And then, I was auditioning for movies and TV because that’s what I really wanted. During that time, I ended up leaving college and I ended up getting my first kind of acting job separately of my parents. And then, it just kind of started going from there.
Elliot: Did you do more training with your acting?
Rumer: Over the years, this and that. But, I got a bit derailed in my 20s because I was so — I don’t know, I was just all over the place. I wanted to work, but I kind of felt a little bit ungrounded in exactly what I wanted to do. I have a tendency to get a bit distracted. It’s definitely a little bit [unin 07:50]. I didn’t have that hunger to really get out and dedicate myself in the way that I think now I would want to.
Elliot: Is there a defining moment for you where you felt like, “Wow. This is big. I have momentum.”
Rumer: Well, I think a few in different ways. I did a movie called “The House Bunny” that really was like probably the biggest studio kind of thing I had done, which was super fun. Again, it was like I would get momentum, and then I would kind of let myself down or not follow through with it. Because I think I just, as I’ve gotten older, I was — I’m still continuing to work through like this unworthiness narrative of like, “Oh, maybe I’m not good enough,” or “Maybe I’m not talented enough so I’m just not going to fully put all of myself into it so that I can never really fail,” which I’m sure a lot of people can relate to.
Elliot: Absolutely. Yes. What about in music, in singing?
Rumer: I feel very unfulfilled in certain ways. Even though someone else could look at me from the outside and be like, “Wow! You’ve done so much.” I’ve even had that reflected back to me by my partner. But, in some ways, I feel so unfulfilled in terms of my creativity. Because I think I’ve held myself back in a lot of ways out of a fear of failure, or out of a fear of just not being good enough. I think it’s been really interesting. As I’ve gone through this pregnancy, I’ve realized that what I really want to teach my kid is, is how okay it is to fail, how it’s so important to allow yourself to try things that you are afraid that you won’t be good at, and to try things that you might look silly so that you can really get back up there and write a bad song, or look silly, or maybe not do the best job in service of just learning.
Elliot: You know what’s interesting? I think a lot of us, myself definitely included, have fear of failure and therefore don’t put ourselves out in the way that we aspire to. But, not everybody’s really so self-aware about it. Even those of us who are more self-aware, but not so comfortable talking about it. I don’t know if that’s motherhood kind of pushing you to think and process your own life, and how you want your kids’ chapters to be different than yours, or if that’s how you are in general. I find you to be a pretty deep-thinker. You’re like an interesting bundle of fun, serious, deep, goofy, but also warm-hearted. Just so kind and warm-hearted.
Rumer: Thank you.
Elliot: Now, it’s something that I’m learning about you is that like your self-process and you’re okay sharing what you’re learning about yourself, at least for your kids. Now, realistically, for the rest of us.
Rumer: Well, I think it’s important. It’s important to be able to own it in a way so that if you just try and hide it and pretend, I did that for so many years, I was like, “I am trying my hardest.” The truth is I wasn’t. The only way that I can actually change that behavior is by acknowledging it. To your point, a lot of it was I got sober at 27, and I wasn’t working as much because I was kind of all over the place. And then, I really deep-dived into a lot of self-excavation of old patterns, of misidentifications, and things. And so, that has kind of been my journey through the last six years of working here and there, but really just working on myself. In a weird way, I feel it might be woo-woo for some people, but I feel that I was almost doing preemptive work to prepare myself for motherhood.
Elliot: Well, actually, I don’t think that’s super woo-woo. But, if it is, fine. I hope you do more music.
Rumer: I would like to.
Elliot: You have a powerfully, beautiful, soft voice, and you have so much heart in you that I think your music can be really moving and in some ways therapeutic for people.
Rumer: Thank you.
Elliot: I’m gunning for the album. You mentioned kind of getting sober. What were you getting sober from?
Rumer: I would say alcohol. Mostly, alcohol I would say. It was even hard for me at the time when I was 27 to identify as an alcoholic. I think that I was just really unhappy. And so, I think that I was feeling unfulfilled, and I wasn’t dealing with all of these emotions that I was stuffing down about my unworthiness, or my judgment of self, or not being fulfilled creatively, or feeling like “Why can’t I find a boyfriend? What’s wrong with me?” All of the spinning thoughts that we all have all day.
I did a cabaret tour, and was definitely living that musician’s life probably not nourishing myself properly. I just had this moment one night, actually it was New Year’s, it was the day before New Year’s or New Year’s Eve. I just wasn’t even having fun. We had wine, and we got in a hot tub, or something, which I know is bad. Don’t do that kids. I would get panic attacks about how bad I would feel the next day already while I was trying to just enjoy the evening. I just had a moment the next day where I was like, “This isn’t even fun.” I’m not even getting to enjoy the part that people enjoy. I kind of started off. It was just going to be sober in January. And then, I just kind of kept going, and here I am six years later.
Elliot: Wow. Congratulations.
Rumer: Thank you.
Elliot: It’s not easy to do. I’m still struggling with Meatless Monday.
Rumer: I get it.
Elliot: I’ll get there. I’ll get there.
Rumer: Sugar is my other one that my [unin 13:49].
Elliot: I mean, the sadness, I cannot even imagine the life growing up under a microscope, under magnifying glass. Very front and center. First child to two Blockbuster after parents, always in the spotlight. Number one, I could see how anyone would be like, “Maybe I’m an imposter. Maybe I’m not a great actor. Maybe I just know people.” And then, also not really getting a chance to sort of develop on your own, or I don’t know. Did you have zits as a teenager and everybody saw?
Rumer: Oh my God, yeah. That I think was one of the most — and still to this day, is one of the most challenging things around my self-value that I really worked on. I would say mostly, even in the last two years. Because you know when you’re having an awkward phase, when you’re 14. And then, there’s paparazzi taking photos of you, and you don’t look great, or you’re trying to figure out your style, or whatever it may be. People were nasty. People said horrible things about the way that I looked, about how ugly I was. The onslaught of negativity, especially about my appearance, was so devastating to the way that I viewed myself, and the way that I was holding the same perception that some troll on the internet from God knows where, just throwing an offhanded comment not thinking about it.
That also played a huge part in just all of that not wanting to fully dive in and put myself out there because it just felt I was setting myself up to just get torn apart really, in a lot of ways. The internet has only grown. We only have more outlets, like TikTok and Instagram. I can’t imagine being a teenager. If I had had to go through what I went through, when there were just a few blogs being nasty to what it is now, it’s kind of manageable. That’s part of the reason why I feel really strongly about not giving my kids an iPad, and not a phone as a binky.
Elliot: Interesting. I mean, our kids were exposed to screen time, but they don’t get devices until they’re in high school.
Rumer: Yeah.
Elliot: And then, that might even be too soon, but they’re very restricted devices. They don’t have social media or anything like that. Even my oldest who’s 18, he can make his own choices now, but he sees the downside of all that. He has a Kosher phone that literally calls and texts, and that’s about it.
Rumer: Which is I think all you need, to a certain extent. I do think it’s important to expose them. At the same time, there’s just got to be a bit of understanding. If you can really build up and focus in showing by example, that’s the biggest thing that I learned that I really want to impart on my kids is, you could tell your kid they’re beautiful; you could tell their kid how amazing they are. But, if you don’t reflect that with how you treat yourself, it means nothing.
Elliot: That’s so powerful and such a big life lesson. I only really started coming around to that literally this year. I’m years and years ahead of you. That’s so powerful. Rumer, let’s take a little break and we’ll be right back.
[Break]
Elliot: Welcome back. We’re talking to Rumer Willis, super pregnant. Still in my mind is you in the spotlight as a teenager and, of course, you need to numb yourself to that. Who wouldn’t want to? It sounds like you chose alcohol as your numbing agent of choice. But even after sober January, how do you recover from that? And also, still, granted by choice now, it’s someone in the spotlight, how do you — obviously, I think anybody that looks at you would not describe you as of anything other than very nice to look at. Everything I described about you in your heart is how you look on the outside, too. Very sweet, and warm, and beautiful. But, to yourself, you may not always see that. How did you come around to accepting you or more than just accepting embracing yourself and loving how you look and feel?
Rumer: Well, there was a lot of me that — well, especially right after I got sober. All of a sudden, you go from numbing everything and shoving it down. It was this huge moment for me. Because all of a sudden, when there’s no distractions, there’s no — people call them “medicators,” right? It can be food, shopping, men, alcohol, drugs, whatever. My distractions were definitely alcohol and dating. When you eliminate those from your life, suddenly then you’re feeling feelings for the first time. I was so overwhelmed. My body went through this crazy detox healing crisis that kind of forced me to stay home. I got shingles. I had all of this crazy health stuff for a good three months.
And so, I just had to sit with myself. I had to just let all of the emotion come out. It was interesting because the emotions came out very physically, which can happen to all of us. I think if you don’t deal with something emotionally, it will manifest physically.
Elliot: Physically, how?
Rumer: Well, I think for people who say have anxiety, they usually tend to have a lot of stomach problems. I’ve seen friends of mine who have a real problem with speaking up for themselves who then always somehow have some sort of respiratory thing.
Elliot: I see what you’re saying.
Rumer: Grief, your lungs are kind of associated with grief. I deep dived into a lot of this kind of healing stuff because I just was kind of leveled by the level of anxiety. I was overwhelmed by sensation because I had been so numb.
Elliot: Physical sensation.
Rumer: Yeah. Just anything that was above — like a flat line. It was so intense. And so, I would get such bad physical anxiety, panic attacks. I worked really hard to find my coping tools to slowly tiptoe and do these three-foot tosses and baby steps to kind of get my body used to feelings high sensation things again.
Elliot: Almost like a desensitization. Meaning, you went from totally numb to hypersensitive.
Rumer: Yeah. To everything. I was lucky enough and privileged enough to be able to do this incredible class called “The Spiritual Psychology,” which was at University of Santa Monica, with these incredible teachers. I got to do it with my mom and my sister, and it changed my life. It was one of the most profound classes I’ve ever taken. It was three years of it. It used to be a master’s program. It truly was life-changing. That’s the reason why I have the relationship I have, why I’m a mom right now. It shifted my whole life.
Elliot: Wow. That sounds so powerful. Indeed, today, you still kind of have this interesting duality where you’re so mellow and relaxed in some ways, but also kind of anxious in other ways, which is interesting. It must be interesting for you to juggle, but it’s also interesting to watch.
Tell me about where in this big picture did “Dancing with the Stars” come in?
Rumer: I did “Dancing with the Stars,” maybe a year or two before I got sober. Everyone in my life was like, “Do not do this show. You are crazy. You’ve never danced before. Don’t do this.” I don’t know, there was something about it where I love a challenge. If I’m given a challenge or something to the rise to the occasion to, I would say nine times out of 10, I do. That’s where I thrive is in that kind of situation. Especially if I’m being taught something.
I had a teacher. One-on-one every day, going six to eight hours a day dancing, which was the craziest thing physically I’ve ever done on my body other than pregnancy. It was incredible. I loved it. I was learning a new skill. I felt like I was doing something that was completely my own that had no attachment to my family. Something that I didn’t think that I would be good at, and that out of nowhere, I was. I ended up winning, which was kind of fun.
Elliot: I mean, amazing! Still now, many years later, congratulations.
Rumer: Thank you.
Elliot: Just the dances that you guys did. He’s a professional, you were brand new at it. It’s so many things entertaining, but wildly entertaining. You’re like looking and you’re like, “No. She must have started dancing when she was three, and this just came easy to her.” It’s so effortless, the way you dance and it makes the viewer so relaxed and just entertained to watch. You can feel so much through your dancing. I was just blown away. Literally, until you just said that, I assumed that you grew up dancing.
Rumer: Oh, my gosh. Not at all. Because we didn’t have time. I would start a dance class, and then we would leave town. Where I would start a gymnastics class, and then we would leave town. I mean, I did give my mom a little bit of a talking to after “Dancing with the Stars.” Because I said, “I’m great at this! You couldn’t have put me in a dance class and just forced me to do it even if I complained?” Of course, then I got my wheels turning be like, “Oh man. My kids had better know another language or two, dance classes, music.” I never thought I would say those kind of things as a mother.
Elliot: Yeah. Actually, to realize that that was that was pre-sober. That’s pretty amazing to be ADD and dependent on alcohol, and to accomplish all that is mind-blowing. Honestly, mind-blowing.
Rumer: It was cool. I wasn’t ever drinking to where it was what you would typically think. I kind of was that person that if I was sad or if I needed confidence, I didn’t feel okay as just myself.
Elliot: Sure. But, what larger spotlight than “Dancing with the Stars”?
Rumer: I know. I feel like I have two people inside of me sometimes.
Elliot: It’s true!
Rumer: There’s one, she’s so calm, so relaxed. Another is this hyper, vigilant, anxious, control freak, and I’m trying to integrate them gently.
Elliot: Fuse. You’re fusing them well. Wow. I like both of them. Right now, you’re pretty health and wellness conscious. What’s your approach?
Rumer: Well, when I got sober, I just saw all of these things that I’d never had anxiety, like I said before. I just wasn’t in tune with my body at all before that. I wasn’t conscious of what I ate, taking vitamins, taking care of myself. That really shifted because I’d never really been sick like that before. I’ve never really had all of those health things. I rarely ever got a fever or got sick like normal people in the just scope of the year.
And so, I really started paying attention to, “Okay. Well, what am I eating?” I stopped kind of eating gluten and sugar. I just really tried to pay attention to what I felt I needed. I was so bad. I used to never even drink water. I would maybe have one bottle of water in a day. I don’t know, I just wanted to try and listen to myself and slow down. Because I felt there was this little kid inside of me. I’ve done a lot of work around what do they call it? “Inner child work,” I guess. I felt like there was this little kid inside of me that was screaming that was like, “I’m hungry, and I’m thirsty, and I need you to take care of me.” And so, I’m going to outlet all of these crazy things in your body so that you listen to me.
Elliot: Oh, wow. That’s deep and powerful.
Rumer: We like to go deep.
Elliot: I don’t know if that’s the “woo” you were talking about, but as taking care of your inner child as a gateway to motherhood.
Rumer: Yeah. A lot of that had to do with kind of re-parenting myself, and noticing how I was dealing with so much pain or victimhood around other people’s rejection of me or my perception of other people’s rejection of me when I was actually really rejecting myself. I was being meaner than they were. I was saying, “Oh, you’re so ugly, or you’re fat, or ‘God, your hair looks like s**t,” or whatever it was that particular day. And so, I was actually being the biggest bully to myself and really had to just reframe even the language that how you speak to yourself is so important. Not just as an example for your kids, but for what you hear. Your body listens.
Elliot: Yeah, totally. I wonder if that’s like, “Okay. If I’m the meanest to myself, then whatever somebody else says won’t be as bad as what I said about myself.”
Rumer: A little bit, yeah. It’s also a self-protective mechanism as well. Similarly, how people do with dating. Where they’re like, “Oh, well, if I keep someone at arm’s length, then I’ll never really be hurt,” kind of idea.
Elliot: And never feel love. Now, you are pregnant.
Rumer: Very pregnant.
Elliot: Very pregnant. How many weeks?
Rumer: I’m 34 weeks. I’m in that chunk that I’m sure all of the gals call you. They’re just like, “I’m ready for this baby to be out of here.”
Elliot: [unin 27:37].
Rumer: Yeah, I’m ready.
Elliot: Well, congratulations. Is motherhood something that you’ve been thinking about for a while?
Rumer: My whole life. The one thing in my life that has been the biggest dream and felt my Divine Purpose in the world. I feel so privileged to have this experience, especially when I know how many women struggle with it. I couldn’t be more excited. I’m so delighted to be a mom. Also, this experience has been so deeply humbling.
Elliot: In what ways?
Rumer: Well, because for so many years, I was so confident about I might have stuff around, my work, and my career, and relationships. But, being a mom, being pregnant, I’m just going to thrive. And then, cut to your six weeks, eight weeks, and I was just laid out. Just physically, it’s hard.
Elliot: Are those things that you logically didn’t know? Like you hadn’t heard about, or you just thought, “That’s not going to be me”?
Rumer: There’s things that you know about. You go, “Oh, yeah. People have morning sickness.” Oh, yeah. People talk about being really tired. But, the biggest thing for me was being so emotional, and having the hormones, you have to surrender. You are not in control of your body. You are not in control of your emotions. You are not in control of anything. That, the part of me that is a bit more perfectionistic and kind of has that desire to control. I just felt if the rug just got pulled out from underneath.
It was challenging because I felt so much shame. Because I was like, “Oh, my gosh. This thing is happening to me that I’ve wanted my whole life, that I’m so unbelievably happy about. And also, it’s really hard physically.” And then, again, in that same position of being mean to myself and battling myself of seeing all my friends who were pregnant, and seeing people on Instagram being like, “Oh, I’m delighted,” and “I’m having the best day,” and “I feel so connected to my baby.” I’m over here being like, “I feel like I’m on a mushroom. Ayahuasca journey every day. I’m lightheaded. I can’t get enough food.”
Elliot: Yeah, Instagram. I mean, my Instagram guy, me on Instagram, he’s got his stuff together in a way that I wish I had my stuff together. I mean, my New Year’s resolution is to be more like my Instagram guy. And so, if we’re using Instagram as a barometer of what reality is like, we’re going to always be a little bit let down.
Rumer: Even just thinking about — here’s a beautiful thing that I’ve realized about myself. I have the most unbelievable imagination, and I think that’s from being a little kid traveling places and seeing things. I can paint a picture of a fantasy or of a plan that I have or manifest it right. But then, I noticed, and this has been something I’ve been working on, especially during my pregnancy, it’s come up as a big lesson, of when reality doesn’t look like the picture, all of a sudden, I get so thrown off.
I had all of these ideas about how I would be so comfortable and easeful being pregnant. I painted this whole picture for myself, and I’m not going to find out the gender, and my sister’s going to be there, and I’m going to have a home birth, and all of these things. I painted this elaborate picture. And then, all of a sudden, I’m dealing with how it really feels to be pregnant, and how physically taxing it is, or feeling challenged to connect with my baby in a way that I didn’t think would happen to me. And then, being so caught up in the fact that it didn’t look like how I thought, that I couldn’t even allow myself the grace or the dignity to adjust to the reality. I have now, but it took a while.
Elliot: That’s also very powerful. I think that’s the Instagram phenomenon on steroids. The fact that we have a vision of what things are. It’s sort of a combination of the fact that sometimes, those are not just rooted in reality. They’re just very airbrushed experiences put out there as if this is my — I mean, I know people who are going through huge, bloody relationship battles and on the verge of divorce or worse. They’re still posting, “To my loving honey bunny, boo-boo on our anniversary day.” You don’t have to sort of take that reality as really probably reality, to begin with. But then, also to be fair in your assessment, it’s hard. It’s hard, yeah. I think you’re my new therapist.
Rumer: I try. Because that’s honestly, that’s part of why I’m doing my doula training, and why I want to be a different kind of doula so I really want to be a doula of the feminine arts. I want it to include preconception, postpartum, sexuality, pleasure, your relationship with yourself. So, it’s not just I’m here supporting you during your pregnancy, but through all of the aspects of navigating your journey like mothering yourself, mothering your baby. Because there’s so many things that people don’t talk about in relation to women’s health. There were so many things that I just didn’t know. I’m someone who was obsessed with birth, and obsessed with pregnancy, and all the things. There were so many things that have been huge learning lessons for me.
I didn’t expect to, I don’t know. I had moments where I was so hot during my early pregnancy. People don’t say, “Hey, you really have to eat every two hours, always have a snack,” or just like “It might be challenging for you to connect with your baby at the beginning, and that’s okay.” There were just things that I wish people talked about more. I was talking to someone the other night who was postpartum and was saying, “You know, it was really hard for me.” If you hear all these stories of women saying, “I’ve never felt a love like this in my life.” She said, “I do love my child, but it took me a while.” I was challenged. And so, I just want to create a space where there’s a dialogue and an openness for people to be able to come and share their experiences without judgment. And so, that you can feel less alone and you don’t have to then have that judgment.
Elliot: I mean, DFA, doula of feminine art sounds incredible. You’re the right person to pioneer that but don’t leave us out. I think men need your wisdom and insight, too. DMA who [unin 34:23].
Rumer: Oh, my gosh. I would love that, yeah. Inviting men into the conversation, inviting partners into the conversation, inviting family. “Hey, this is how I need to be supported.” “Hey, this is what would feel good.” Because pregnancy can be so isolating. We have to teach people how to take care of us.
Elliot: Starting with us?
Rumer: Exactly. Starting with yourself. Let’s take a little break. I’m going to have to listen to this episode three times to get everything again out of you. Let’s take a little break. When we come back, we’ll talk about your imminent birth and the plans you have for it.
[Break]
Elliot: Welcome back. We’re talking to a super pregnant, Rumer Willis. I have a couple more things I want to talk to you about. One is your plans for birth. You kind of leaked out their possible home birth with your sister there.
Rumer: Yeah. Ideally, that’s where I would love to do it. At home with my partner. I have a fantastic midwife and doula team who are just truly have such incredible community of women to help me through this process and feel confident in myself and in my power. But I’m also, at the same time, especially because I have that tendency in working on control, I’m really not letting myself be fixated. If at any point, someone said to me, “You know what? There’s a little bit high risk.” Like, if I did an ultrasound or something like that, and someone brought forward anything that could be a potential risk, I don’t feel like I need to prove something or that I have to tough it out. Because at the end of the day, the most important thing is just having a healthy baby.
Elliot: Have you gotten advice from family or friends that is meaningful to you that you’ve so far found helpful? I asked that because I say this all the time, but back in the day, you used to live with the family. We all did on family, properties, and villages. We used to just see pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding, it was all natural. Sometimes, we don’t. We don’t have that much exposure to it anymore. That’s why we even do these before and after episodes to give exposure to all sorts of different birth experiences. Sometimes, you get stuff from your family or friends that is helpful pearls of wisdom.
Rumer: One of the most amazing things that my doula, Lori Bregman, who’s just an angel. If any of you out there are looking for a doula. She’s also who’s training me in my doula mentorship.
Something that she said to me. My mom had all three of us, unmedicated. In a hospital, but unmedicated. Lori said to me, “You have an imprint for that because that’s how your mom birthed you.” I came into the world, not by C-section. She had a vaginal delivery without an epidural. She was like, “And that’s imprinted in you.” And so, for me, it was never a question that I wanted to do it that way. There’s something to be said for just trusting your body and trusting the process of birth that is such an ancestral thing.
If I was laying out flat cold, my body would still know exactly what to do at the end of the day. Look, that’s not to say that whatever your birth experience is, I don’t want to judge or whatever someone feels the safest and right for you, I encourage that above all else. The most important thing for me to share is just that you get curious. Make whatever decision you want. If you want to have the C-section in the hospital, if you want to be medicated on your back, whatever, you want to be at home, if you want to be in a stream, if you want a dolphin-assisted birth, whatever you want, just ask all the questions and be informed of all of your options so that you can come from a place of empowerment and know that whatever you decide that you can do it.
Elliot: Oh, my God. You just literally read the mission statement for Informed Pregnancy right off our website. We’re on the same page. Are there things though that you particularly be — especially with the two rues that live in your head, super chill rue and super anxious rue. I can imagine they approach this upcoming experience from different vantage points. Are there things that you’re very excited about, and things that you’re also kind of worried about?
Rumer: Weirdly the birth part is the only part that doesn’t scare me as much, or the more kind of I would say antagonistic, or freaked out rue sometimes has. I feel really confident in my ability to birth this baby. My partner and I ended up kind of at month seven, ended up finding out the gender. Immediately, there was this disconnect. It was like a thing got plugged in. Suddenly, I was having conversations. I felt so much more connected. It wasn’t like, “Oh, there’s like a tiny little [unin 39:34] swimming in my belly, too.” There’s a person, and who has chosen me to be their mother, who has chosen all of my stuff, all of my flaws, who has chosen my partner, who has decided that they want to come in and be with me, and do this life with me.
And so, it really became in my head, we’re doing this together. We are co-creating this experience together. To really trust the timing, how they want to be born. Again, this little woo-woo. Kids come in and they’re going to come what time. They want they’re going to come how they want. Whether that’s in 24, 48 hours, or five hours. It doesn’t matter. You got to just, again, surrender and co-create the process with them. That’s at least what I’m trying to kind of manifest.
Elliot: It sounds like this is one area where the two rues might sort of be in harmony?
Rumer: Yeah, very much so. Also, just leaving space for whatever comes. I have a glorious backed-up doctor, who’s Dr. Crane, who has delivered everyone.
Elliot: Eighty million babies.
Rumer: Everyone. Delivered both my half-sisters, tons of my friends. My mom even went to go see him when she was pregnant with me. I have an incredible team that I really trust, and I have an amazing partner, and I’ve been at quite a few births. I was at both of my sister’s birth, and then my younger sister, Mabel. And then, a few other friends’ births. I’ve seen quite a bit, and I’m also that birth junkie who literally is scrolling Instagram watching the birth videos.
Elliot: Oh, yes.
Rumer: I feel very prepared for that.
Elliot: Along those lines, what kind of things are you doing in the final months, weeks, to get your mind and body ready for this big experience?
Rumer: I’m definitely coming to see you because I have had crazy sciatica which not so fun.
Elliot: That is a pain in the butt.
Rumer: It really is. I totally did the classic pregnant woman trope of six weeks before birth, redoing my kitchen and doing construction on my house, which is just how could I not.
Elliot: Nesting.
Rumer: The nesting thing is very serious. I did not realize it. Even on a day like today. I have nothing to do today. Other than talk to you, I could lay in bed all day and just treat myself make some hot tea. And then, I sit there, and I try and relax, and the only thing I can think about is putting diapers into a dresser that I don’t yet have, or organizing, or folding up clothes, whatever. I got that feeling like, “I got to get it ready. I got to get it ready.”
Elliot: Which is so funny because all the baby needs is you.
Rumer: Exactly.
Elliot: Are you watching things, or listening to things, reading things?
Rumer: Well, actually, honestly, listening to your podcast for me, listening to stories, and listening to other women’s experiences are so helpful for me. Because when people share honestly and from just a depth full place, it really helps. Because you go, “I can do that, okay, yeah. I think I can do that.” I’ve loved it. I love the before and after, because there’s such a beauty in the expectation, and then really talking about how it was.
I was reading this incredible book called, “Safe Infant Sleep,” which I really enjoyed. Because I realized that ideally, my goals are to only breastfeed, and to breast sleep or co-sleep, but I don’t see a lot of information about it. I know that there are obviously risks involved, but again, I wanted to be informed. I want to know everything. I want to be able to make a decision from a place where it’s not just based on fear. Because I don’t like operating out of a place of fear. I don’t. It’s unhelpful. We’ve seen a lot of it in the last couple years of just projection, and judgment, and resistance. Each mother should be able to make a choice about what’s right for them, what’s right for their family. It’s helped me a lot in certain ways.
I didn’t used to think that I would be a mom who cared about what kind of pillows I have, or the mattress I have, or the chemicals in them, or how to sleep with your baby, or what kind of food, or what kind of cleaning supplies I have in the house, but I do. Because I’ve asked questions and I’ve been curious. I didn’t have to get the RhoGAM shot because I asked questions and I founded on a PT that could test my baby’s blood. I found out we have the same type. Normally, they just give you that shot at 28 weeks, which is fine if you need it. If I have to get it the next time I’m pregnant, then I will, but I didn’t have to this time.
Elliot: So, you and your partner are incompatible. You’re negative and he’s positive?
Rumer: Yeah.
Elliot: Okay. We’ll do an episode on that at some point and explain what the science all about, but that’s the whole thing. If you don’t have the information, you can’t be a participant in decision-making. What about film? Any of the documentaries?
Rumer: Oh, yes. “The Business of Being Born” was a huge one. I just actually got to go to an incredible luncheon with Abby and Ricky, who are celebrating the 15-year anniversary and doing a re-release.
Elliot: Fifteen years. It’s so crazy. People assume still that that happened two years ago, when they watched the film and she must have a 2-year-old.
Rumer: I know. Well, I showed it to a friend of mine who’s pregnant, is about three weeks ahead of me, and she was going to do a hospital birth. And then, after watching, it was like, “I want to do it at home.”
Elliot: Yeah. It’s kind of amazing now, having been in this field for 20 years with “The Business of Being Born” out for 15. Most people watching, at the very least, they’re like, “Wait a second. I need to do more homework and know my options.” Some of them are like, “Oh, I don’t want that experience. I want to give birth at home.” And so, I’m actually watching like, “Okay, I definitely want to give birth at the hospital, but I need to know more.” It’s a very powerful iconic film. Right now, it’s streaming on Informed Pregnancy Plus, along with a bunch of other films. I cannot tell you, of our 350 episodes, I cannot tell you how many people bring up that film and was like, “That is where I realized I need to have information.” I got started on their empowerment journey.
Rumer: It’s so important. Just having the information, right? Having the confidence to ask questions. I have a bunch of friends who struggled with breastfeeding but then don’t necessarily have the resources or support or maybe understand the importance of it. In that book I was reading about, “Safe Infant Sleep,” obviously, we all know how important it is to breastfeed. If you can, that’s great. But, it’s just a tip of the iceberg. The information that’s public compared to all of the things that I’ve at least dived into. There’s a couple of different documentaries on breastfeeding that I watched. I watch everything because I’m just kind of a grumpy for this stuff. There’s one called “The Milky Way,” and there’s just so much.
Elliot: There’s “Breastmilk: The Documentary,” there’s “The Milky Way,” and there’s others on breastfeeding also. You’re right, each one of them is so powerful. That’s why we actually made it in Informed Pregnancy Plus, because they’re out there somewhere, but it’s hard to find them all. And then, if you do find them, usually, you’ve got to run each one and it can really add up. So, my vision for our two films and all the other birth content I can find was to just put them in one place, easy to access, and everybody can do a free trial and watch as much as you want during the trial period, then it’s $6 for all-you-can-eat really. But, to your point about like not everybody has the resource, so we’re building workshops. Workshops about lactation with tons of valuable information. That is just part of the package. Postpartum, my wife’s postpartum workshop is already up there, The AfterBirth Plan, and so much other content like that. You’re a birth junkie. You feel to me like you’ve been a mom already, and now you’re coming around for round two in this world.
Rumer: I feel that way a lot of the time.
Elliot: It’s hard to find all the information. I want to talk to you about one more thing before we sign off, “Rumer Has It.” This is your business. Tell me about “Rumer Has It.” First of all, I can’t get the song out of my mind after watching “Dancing with the Stars,” but tell me about “Rumer Has It.”
Rumer: Ideally, it’s in a certain way, kind of a bit like what you’re trying to create as well. I want to create a space, obviously, for non-pregnant women as well. I kind of was using the model of goop, right? Really because I’m obviously a new mother, and there’s so many different things. What stroller do you get? What kind of bottle do you use? If you’re having issues breastfeeding, what do you do? I really want to create kind of this foundational space I would say for the doula of the feminine archetype to really flourish. Because I want to have that be the platform for, “Hey, these are the things that no one’s going to tell you about that you need in the first trimester. These are the life hacks or the things that will save you, and these are the things that you don’t need to spend crazy money on.” Just a place where women can go to have a forum and a community to talk about all this kind of stuff and get information about all the different things. [unin 49:14], relationship, motherhood, bottles. What’s the best kind of non-toxic pillow, or things, or cribs? What’s safe? All of it.
Elliot: Sounds incredible. In this birth world, you find puzzle pieces that are all trying to put that village back together and fill in the blanks. It started with professions. Since we’re not on the property and we don’t know, so you have a lactation consulting, you have a childbirth educator, you have a baby nurse, a doula. There’s all these resources that we could put together and make an online village, an online puzzle, and it sounds like “Rumer Has It” is going to be an incredible unique puzzle piece that’s going to help a lot of people. Thank you for doing that.
Rumer: I’m excited because I love sharing. I have this thing that I got, that I found from my osteopath’s office, that is a hot towel warmer. I bought these from this lovely little mother in Tennessee. She makes hand-sewn little microwavable hot pack. And so, I’m using that for my home birth. You literally just put the little microwave hot packs in this hot towel warmer. And so, I have heat pads then, accessible all the time, and it’s been so helpful during my pregnancy. Whenever I’ve had back pain, or I can’t see you, or whatever, it’s great. There are little things that make a huge difference, but you might not know them.
Elliot: But, we will now.
Rumer: Yes, we will.
Elliot: Rumer, I am sending the most beautiful vibe for an incredible birth.
Rumer: Thank you.
Elliot: I cannot wait for you to come back and share the story with us, the rest of the story. In the meantime, where can we find you online?
Rumer: In my Instagram, which is just my name, Rumer Willis. Hopefully, we’ll be sharing more things as I get closer to this birth, and that will be where I do kind of all of the “Rumer Has It” building and announcements as well.
Elliot: Beautiful. I’m not going to lie, I’m a tiny bit jealous of your baby. All right. If you want to find us online, you can find the podcast, you can find the blog, you can find Informed Pregnancy Plus all at informedpregnancy.com.
Elliot: Welcome to the Informed Pregnancy and Parenting Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Elliot Berlin. My guest today is a media professional and she is a mother of two, and her story to pregnancy and birth is quite interesting. Arista Ilona, welcome to the podcast.
Arista: Thank you. I’m happy to be here.
Elliot: I’m so happy you’re here. And, you’re going to have to listen to this episode all the way through. You probably do always anyway. But, we have an exciting announcement at the end of this one. But, before we get there, let’s start at the beginning. Where are you from originally?
Arista: I am a Los Angeles native. Born and raised, Southern California.
Elliot: How was that growing up in the City of Angels?
Arista: Honestly, it was normal for me. I think because it’s all I’ve ever known. But, when I talk to people who have not ever been to LA and they hear my stories, I’m realizing that it was quite different and definitely not normal to be in such a fast-paced environment and meeting and seeing just random celebrities here and there as I’ve grown up, or going to school with like, so and so, son or daughter. So, that was always something that wasn’t weird for me. Yeah, it’s I think been great. I love the sun. I cannot stand cold weather. So, I am forever damaged. Like, now, is currently flood watches and rain. I’m just like, “What do I do with myself?” I do not know how to operate in anything but the sun.
Elliot: I was looking at my office window today. I have a great view, and the trees are all just shaking back and forth. There’s a heavy downpour. It felt like I was in Miami. I don’t know where I am.
Arista: Yeah. That’s how I feel. I’m like, “What do I do?” I’m like ordering groceries to be delivered. I’m so dramatic. I can’t even go outside.
Elliot: Alright. You grew up in Los Angeles — and by the way, my wife and I were from New York, but like Staten Island, not the big city. And, when we came here, we assumed we were going to see celebrities on every corner. And, the other thing that’s interesting is that I’m face blind. So, even if I had a celebrity talking to me, I would have no idea who they are. So, we used to just make it up on the corner. Like, we’ll be at a red light and like, “Oh, look! There’s Britney Spears!” But, we’re just you know.
Arista: I love that. And, yeah, I actually just recently found that out. I never knew that about you. I had no idea.
Elliot: I only found out when I was 39.
Arista: Goodness.
Elliot: Also, I feel like you look different every time.
Arista: Yes.
Elliot: I don’t think it’s just me.
Arista: Doesn’t help, I know.
Elliot: Yeah.
Arista: Yeah. I cut my hair. I’m so sorry.
Elliot: No. It’s totally fine. I wouldn’t help anyway. But, for you, usually, have a rough generalized. Like, “Okay. This is what this person’s going to look like.” You could be a completely different person playing a prank on me, and I would have no idea.
Arista: Whoopsie! But, I am always wearing this necklace that has my daughter’s name, Aiya.
Elliot: That’s a clue. But, if you gave that to somebody else, then I would believe. Alright. Speaking of daughter, we got to get there. Let’s just talk a little bit. We said that you were a media professional. What was that trajectory like?
Arista: Wow. Oh, man. Let’s see. In a nutshell, I always knew that I wanted to be in the entertainment industry. My father worked at Warner Brothers for a very long time and worked his way up from being a limousine driver to a famous anchor, who we all know as Dallas Raines.
Elliot: Oh, wow.
Arista: Yeah. Who was on ABC-7 News. Funny enough that was one of my first places I landed as an intern. I got to go up to him and be like, “Hey, you knew my dad.” He totally remembered, and he actually carried me as a baby. So, that was super cool. I had a big love for broadcast journalism, and being a news anchor. I love Lauren Sanchez, and that was my whole vibe. And so, I kind of bounced around from ABC-7 to Entertainment Tonight, got to help a senior producer there, and was learning the ropes. I kind of quickly realized that it wasn’t my forte in the sense that I just didn’t want to know too much about celebrities in that sense. Like, who was dating who and all of that. I know that’s something that is very interesting for some people, but it just wasn’t the space that was lighting me up.
So, I ended up shifting to radio, and music was my other love. That got me through a lot of tough times growing up. And so, I decided to dive into the music space. And, luckily landed an internship at Clear Channel. KIIS FM, 102.7 KIIS FM, which was LA’s top 40 radio station. And then, 98.7 was the rock station. Still is, the alternative rock. They were the best of both worlds. That is basically like blending me in one, and I was like, “This is awesome.”
And so, I actually was there for three and a half years. I went from internship to them becoming a programming assistant, production, doing straight team, and I just worked my butt off and was going to schools, working like five jobs. It was a very hectic time. Very LA of me to be also working at a restaurant, and also at a radio station. I just made some connections and I always stayed in touch with the head director there. Shout out to Julie Pilat. To this day, I still know her. I was like 19 when I started, not to age myself. But, that was definitely like 15 years ago.
Elliot: I can do the math, but I won’t.
Arista: Yes. Let’s not. So, I landed there with her. I took a break briefly and moved to Oregon, Southern Oregon, randomly. Took a break for about two years. I was burnt out, not going to lie. I think I overdid it a bit. I need to reset and find a new inspiration. To be honest, Oregon kind of gave me that, and I wasn’t expecting it. But, it also gave me like the granola phase in my life. When I looked back at it. I was like the hippie girl. Oregon definitely brought that phase out of me. I suddenly became a yoga professional [unin] some thoughts. And then, was getting into aromatherapy essential oils, and met an amazing biodynamic farmer up there. Yeah, it was like a whole other side of me. Like, my very green thumb side came out at that time. And then, I missed my hometown. I missed LA. I was like, “Okay. I’m too young I think to be here.” And, even though I was working at a radio station there in Oregon, a very small one, I was like,” This is really slow.” Like, there’s no billboards.
Elliot: Yeah.
Arista: It was definitely the nurturing vibe I needed at the time, and very therapeutic. But, I was ready to come back. And so, long story short, I came back to LA. And then, got back in touch with Julie. She needed an assistant at that time again. But, this time, for a different company called Beats Music, which it wasn’t named at the time. It was a startup, and I was part of like the core team there that then got bought out by Apple. It was like the biggest streaming music history deal that you’ve ever heard of, and I was a part of that crazy acquisition and ended up at Apple for eight years.
Elliot: Wow. Looks pretty cool.
Arista: Yeah. And then, now, I’ve been recently at Netflix. But, also, still doing my own business on the side that’s really catered in helping people find secret presents on the go, which stems from motherhood, which I know will get into.
Elliot: Secret presents.
Arista: Yes.
Elliot: Wait. But, you also have Botanica.
Arista: Yeah, Botanica. Yes. So, that’s Ilona Botanica. And, that’s the oils which stemmed from like what I learned in Oregon, learning how to blend aromatherapy to kind of have like secret presents on the go, which seems like, “How is that even possible?” But, that’s something close and dear to my heart, which is about soul wellness as a whole. And, how can we integrate that presence in our life when we are moving so fast, especially as a mother, and just as a woman, and living in the city. These products that I make: the mist, and the body oils, and the bath oils, is something to encourage ritual as much as possible. Because I know that not everyone can go to a yoga retreat in India. Or, even honestly, it’s very difficult for me to make it to a yoga class. So, I decided to create some tangible item and product that was special for me that I could throw in my bag. Mist myself when I’m like in the car in traffic, or just needing a quick pick me up. And, that was something to like come back to myself and feel connected within, and essentially feeling at home wherever I go.
Elliot: It’s really great. And now, you help other people have those same experiences on the go.
Arista: Yeah.
Elliot: That’s really cool. You have kids?
Arista: I do, unexpectedly.
Elliot: Well, let’s talk about that. What does that mean? Because were you not planning to be a mom?
Arista: No. I was never really one of those girls I often hear like, “As a little girl, I always wanted to be a mom and play with dolls. I just knew that that was what I wanted.” I didn’t have that. I often felt a bit weird, or something was wrong with me that I didn’t have that initial plan I guess, or feeling. It was never really something that crossed my mind. And, I don’t know if that’s maybe because, growing up, witnessing my grandmother having a very, very hard time coming from Costa Rica to the States, and struggling very, very, very hardly. Grew up on food stamps, and Section 8, and it just wasn’t the American dream unfortunately that she thought that it was, for her, in particular. She didn’t have anybody. She was single a single mom of six, and didn’t have that masculine male support in her life. So, I never really saw it as being a positive, of having children, and getting married, and trusting that whole American dream with the white picket fence I guess, right?
And then, my mother also, not being married to my father and splitting up when I was very young. I guess I just never saw that model of like, “Hey, this is like a great thing to experience.” I think I was very scared very.
Elliot: Is your grandma from Costa Rica, your mother’s mother?
Arista: Yes.
Elliot: Okay. So, they split. So, was your dad not in the picture, or was he kind of…?
Arista: Yeah. My dad was like in and out. I like to call him a rolling stone. He loves like kind of being on the road, and being in the trees. That’s where I get my love for road trips, and the forest, and nature is from him. He was kind of like in and out.
I remember meeting him when I was 7. I know that he was in my life prior, but it was kind of choppy. And then, once, I was a teen, like 14 and up, then I remember seeing him a lot. We went on trips and all that. But, I think it was fairly hard for him to be in my life. I don’t know if it’s because of my mom, or what, it gets complicated. But, I know that he definitely tried when he could. I guess I just never felt safe.
Elliot: Your siblings.
Arista: Yeah. Half siblings from my dad’s side. So, I have three sisters and two brothers.
Elliot: Okay. That you grew up with or not really?
Arista: No.
Elliot: No. Okay.
Arista: I knew then. We would talk, but it wasn’t under the same roof.
Elliot: So, it really is Grandma, Ma, and you.
Arista: Yeah. And then, my aunts, my cousins, my oldest aunt who also came from Costa Rica. But then, my grandmother passed away when I was 14. And then, that was super devastating for me. I had to grow up fairly quick at that age, and kind of went into survival mode, to be honest.
Elliot: So, you paint a picture in which it’s like, I don’t know, to me, it just seems like understandable why that wouldn’t want to be having responsibility for kids, and wouldn’t want to be something that you would chase after.
Arista: Yeah.
Elliot: But, somehow, you have kids. Alright. Let’s take a little break. Because I feel like the story is just warming up, and I feel also compelled to remind the listener at home that we have a surprise announcement at the end of this episode with Arista Ilona. We’ll be right back.
[Break]
Elliot: Welcome back. We’re talking to Arista Ilona. Okay. So, you have this whole career thing going on. And then, you go off to Oregon. And then, you come back, semi-hippified.
Arista: The whole boujee.
Elliot: And then, Beats, Apple, Netflix. Somewhere along there, you change course, and you started having kids. What happened?
Arista: Yeah. So, what happened? Yeah, what happened? I still wonder that, but in a good way. I don’t know [unin].
Elliot: Okay. But, I know roughly what happened.
Arista: Yeah. So, yes, my oldest just turned 7.
Elliot: Happy birthday.
Arista: Yeah, thank you. Seven years ago, I got pregnant actually right before we launched Beats One Radio, which was so crazy. It was such a crazy time. Very, very hectic. I remember finding out, and I was like, “Oh, man. What am I going to do?” I remember my best friend, being the one that I was just talking to and like, “What do I do? What do I do?’ She was so understanding, and just calmed me. We would take walks. Because she was working with me at the office, and we would take walks together on our break. I would see a little Monarch butterfly fly by me, and I was still in my little hippie phase because I was still new to coming back to LA. I was like, “It’s a sign. I need to embrace motherhood and I have to do this.” I just feel something like this is going to transform something within me and it’s really scary. But, I feel I need to move towards it. I need to like, “Be scared and do it anyway.” And so, I did.
It definitely was scary. I remember calling my dad, and he was very supportive, and my mom. And so, I was almost in shock. Like, “Wow! Everyone is actually pretty happy and on board.” And so, even though I was like, “Oh, I just paid my car off, and it was only a 2-door car, and I had all these plans to meet, travel the world, and do all this crazy stuff.” Here is the curveball, but I felt it was going to really change me for the better.
Elliot: I have so many questions. Can you answer whichever ones you want to and not answer the ones you don’t? But, were you in a committed relationship?
Arista: What is the definition of that at that time? It probably was not.
Elliot: Okay.
Arista: I’m going to be honest. It was, “Hey. Oh, cool. You’re attractive. I’ll see you around.” I was going to events that he was throwing in Venice, California at the time by Venice Beach. We just were hanging out. And then, after three months, I ended up pregnant.
Elliot: As happens. How did you figure it out? Was it a big surprise?
Arista: Yes. It was a very big surprise, and I felt a lot of shame. Because I was somebody that was like, “If that ever happened.” Like, even though I didn’t think I’d ever become a mother. The planner in me was, “Well, if I did, I need to be engaged first, and we got to live together,” and all the perfect pieces that you think would make something be acceptable or okay, without getting the judgy eyes. But then, I was that girl that was, “Oh, no.” Unexpected pregnancy with somebody that didn’t even believe in marriage, and was kind of more open with his commitment, and that was very scary to be in at the same time of embracing an unexpected pregnancy.
But, the one thing that I do appreciate is the honesty and the transparency that he had with me in the beginning. It was something that we talked about, and that we decided to move forward. Like, “Hey, no matter what. We’re going to co-parent, right? We’ll be good co-parents to each other and for the child.” And so, yeah. I mean, it was navigating deep waters that I’d never had been in, right? But, I was always an open-minded person, and kind of just flowed with things, and embraced things in life that came my way because I saw it as an opportunity to grow. Like, on a spiritual level, as a person, too. And so, I was like, “Okay. This is what was presented to me, and I’m going to take responsibility.”
Elliot: What was your clue?
Arista: The Monarch butterflies.
Elliot: Oh, the butterflies.
Arista: I know that sounds so corny. But, yeah, it was at that time a very symbolic animal for me, or insect. I actually have a tattoo of a Monarch butterfly on my right arm, which I had a few months before I got pregnant. So, it was even more of a, “Hey, this is my own little sign.” My own little explanation for myself that once I got pregnant, I kept seeing them everywhere. And, when I wasn’t sure what to do, and I was having a conversation with her father, he actually told me that that day prior, there was a dead monarch butterfly that was at his doorstep. I was just kind of like, “Huh, that’s interesting.” I just took that as like, “No. I need to move forward and step into this as a woman.”
It’s so odd to look back at it now. Because at the time, I couldn’t put my finger on it. Obviously, you don’t know when you’re in it until you look back and you see, “Oh, wow.” I definitely changed and that definitely helped me in my life. Even though it was really scary and a really hard decision to make. Looking back, I wouldn’t have it any other way. It’s just amazing when you look back on your life. Especially, seven years, ten years ago, and you see how much it shaped you.
Elliot: Do you think the change started to take place when you decided to keep the baby, or when you gave birth, or through the act of parenting?
Arista: I think definitely when I gave birth and became a mother. Because the pregnancy, I felt great and I still was doing things. It kind of hits you, overnight. So, I didn’t really feel different until I had the baby in my arms. I was, “Whoa! Okay. This is real. Like, it’s real!”
Elliot: They say all the time that at your first birth, there’s two births simultaneously: the birth of the baby and the birth of the mother. It sounds like you really experienced that.
Arista: Yes. And, that’s a great way to put it. That’s exactly what it was.
Elliot: Speaking of birth, keeping a baby’s one thing, deciding to co-parent, also, another thing. But then, you have to get that kid out of you. As somebody who never thought about having kids, how did that thought process go?
Arista: I was very fascinated around the idea of a home birth. I know, I know. Before for all the judgees — They’re losing their mind listening to this. Yeah, a home water birth. I was fascinated with having a midwife and a doula. And, I still, to this day, think that it’s very important to have a doula, but also have a plan B, which I did not have. So, I was just very laser-focused on this home water birth, and I didn’t want to think about anything else. And then, I was definitely afraid of a C-section, so I wasn’t even going to touch that idea or think about it.
Elliot: Who did you have to support you? Who was going to be there?
Arista: It was going to be her father, my midwife, my doula, and two of my friends.
Elliot: Okay. Friends who had babies?
Arista: Nope.
Elliot: Okay. And, where did the idea of home birth work even — because almost everybody gives birth at the hospital? Where did you even come to see that idea?
Arista: I think it’s going to just blame Oregon. I’m going to blame the dose of hippie life where I started researching and hearing people talk about — was it Ina May?
Elliot: Oh, yeah.
Arista: I started hearing talks about that. And then, going down the YouTube rabbit hole of orgasmic birthing. And, I think I was just fascinated by it. I wasn’t, again, thinking of having children. I was just, “Well, interesting.” Because I was meeting a lot of families in Oregon and mothers. I was, “Oh, well. That seems like the rebel thing to do and that’s how I live my life sometimes.” It’s like, “I’m going to go the other way and try this other cool thing that’s different.” And so, that was the plan and that was a whole other layer.
Elliot: Did you do things that get sort of prepared mind and body for it? Or, just like, “Yeah, we’ll have a home birth.”
Arista: Yeah. I mean, I thought that I was prepared. I didn’t really know what I didn’t know until I was in it. I was like, “Okay. I’m not ready for this. This was kind of crazy idea.”
Elliot: How did it start?
Arista: I started cramping, had the good old mucus plug — just so gross. I was not prepared for that.
Elliot: Delicious.
Arista: What is this slug on my thigh? What is this?
Elliot: Oh, giant [unin] on you?
Arista: Yeah. I’m so grossed. And so, at that time, I was texting my doula, and I would have like, “Well, I think it’s happening.” They’re like, “That’s great.” I just started taking my time and wearing, I had this like sarong. This bright pink sarong from Hawaii, wrapped around me all pretty in the front but around my neck. And then, a couple hours into feeling I guess the slow contractions. I didn’t know then, but I know now that I had a panic attack.
Elliot: Oh!
Arista: Yeah. I totally blacked out.
Elliot: What?
Arista: Yes.
Elliot: Had you had panic attacks before?
Arista: No.
Elliot: You think that a lot of mist — you needed the mist.
Arista: Yes, exactly! That’s why I created them.
Elliot: Oh, my gosh.
Arista: Yeah. I had no idea —
Elliot: You don’t remember what happened, even now?
Arista: I barely. It’s so vague. I remember fragmented moments that are just kind of in and out. I remember the sounds, hearing things. I remember sensations. And then, little blips of the entire birthing experience, which I guess I was told lasted three days. I have no idea.
Elliot: Was there any pictures, or video, or anything like that?
Arista: Yeah there were. But, I did not watch any video.
Elliot: Still haven’t?
Arista: No. Uh-uh.
Elliot: Oh, my God. We need to watch it.
Arista: Oh, my gosh. I know. I remember seeing —
Elliot: Oh, my God. I want to do — I like a video episode with you where you watch your birth.
Arista: Oh, my gosh. No.
Elliot: Oh, my gosh. Yes.
Arista: Yeah. I mean, I remember —
Elliot: You still haven’t watched it?
Arista: No. Because I remember when he played it once, I was like, “No, no, no. Turn it off.” Like, just hearing me in pain, I was like, “Oh, I can’t.” I don’t even know who that is. It was just kind of traumatic, not going to lie. Maybe seven years now, I’m good.
Elliot: We’re just warming up in your story, but it sounds like you’ve come so far. Now, I’m so curious what your reaction will be if you watch it. Like, if things will come back to you or not or, “Okay, I digress.” Back to you. So, you blackout. And, on and off for three days, you can’t tell us too much because you don’t remember.
Arista: No. I just remember this one moment feeling in so much pain. In the beginning, I remember feeling shortness of breath, right? When the contractions were starting and I started feeling, “Oh, I can’t breathe! I can’t breathe!” I thought it was a sarong being too tight on my neck because it was wrapped around, and not in the back. And so, I, right away, just took it off. And then, I was just naked there. I was just, “Oh,” and I started freaking out. I told him I was, “I feel I’m going to pass out.” I just remember everything just the circle, zoning in and closing.
And then, next thing you know, I’m in the water tub. And then, I hear my midwife and my doula, and my friends in the background. They’re getting things prepared. But, I’m out of it. I’m not even really present. And so, I remember being in and out of the water. And then, them asking me to go into the shower. And then, going back in the water. And then, coming out of the water. And then, going on the floor and trying to do movement, and move my body. And then, another part where my midwife was like, “You know, you’re only dilated 6 centimeters, and I can’t feel her.” She had her hand up there, trying to feel and see where the baby is. And, I started getting worried at that point. And then, I needed a catheter.
And then, immediately, in that moment, I’m pooping myself. I’m like, “Why did I have this idea of a home birth?” In that moment, it’s like, “This is gross. I feel gross.” I personally was not enjoying it. And then, I just felt in so much pain. I was having back labor. And so, I remember her telling me, “The baby’s flipped.” I was in excruciating pain. And then, my friends were there. And then, they started trying to calm me by singing and playing the drum, and the sound bowl. I was just overstimulated. I was like, “None of this is helping me.” I thought it would. I had this idea of this super calming, relaxing zen vibe with the candles, and the dim lights, and the aromatherapy, and everything, right? It was just, “I don’t know, I can’t even focus.”
And so, it got to the point where I was on my back, and I was having contractions so much that’s where I could barely take a breath. I couldn’t count to three seconds. I was like, “Ugh!” It was just excruciating in my lower back, and I just started crying. I remember my midwife being, “It’s okay to stop here. Whatever you want to do, we can go. We can transfer. You know you’re tired. We don’t want anything to happen to the baby. Let’s make the call.”
My stubbornness was kicking. I was like, “No. I don’t want to give up.” This was the dream experience birth that I really wanted to try to have. But, at that point, I knew I’m spent. I’m exhausted. And so, we decided to transfer.
My doula drove us to the hospital. I remember getting up and they’re trying to help me, and I don’t know that feeling of walking with excruciating contractions, which is horrible. And then, I didn’t know what day it was. I saw the sun, but I was like, “Wait. It was nighttime when I went to labor. So, what is even happening?” It was just such a weird, weird experience for me to feel so out of touch. And then, being in the car in the back seat, and just every bump and every movement was just like, “Ah!” It just was hurting even more for me.
Finally, get to the hospital. I asked for an epidural right away, which is, of course, another thing that was like, “I’ll never get an epidural because I knew of all chemicals.” And so, I knew too much. And so, that also kind of made it really hard for me to accept the decisions that had to be made at that time with urgency. Because then, I felt I was hurting my baby.
And so, I was dealing with a lot of guilt, and a lot of second guessing myself, and just feeling I gave up. But, in the moment, I just needed relief. And so, once they gave me the epidural, I was like, “Oh!” There’s that breath. There’s that full breath and that feeling that I had been looking for. And then, I asked if I could try just give us a little bit more time. Used the peanut ball in between my legs to maybe see if I progress now that I have the epidural, and just give my body a little bit more time now that I’m relaxed. They let me for a little bit. But then, the OB came in and was like, “We got it. We got to get this baby out. Because it’s been a long time.”
Elliot: Because you said three days already.
Arista: Yeah.
Elliot: Is this an OB that you knew? Or, no, just a random–?
Arista: No. My midwife knew her. I had no idea. I’ve never met her before. She walked in with a leather jacket. Just super–
Elliot: [unin] OB?
Arista: Kind of like. But, I think she was from New York. Maybe it worked out. I just felt like, “Oh, man. This is kind of aggressive.” Not like the glowing light around.
Elliot: Yeah.
Arista: Like, the nurturing woman vibe that I was kind of foreseeing. The experience would be like, “Let me deliver your baby.” It’s like, “Oh, no.” It was like, “Nope, got to get her out. Let’s go.” The minute she walked out of the room after, she said, “We got to have a C-section.” She walked out. I just broke down the hardest deepest cry that I’ve ever experienced in my life. Similar to basically when my grandmother passed away.
Elliot: Oh, my.
Arista: I was devastated.
Elliot: What is the source of that devastation?
Arista: One, I am so scared of surgeries and hospitals. I was just really scared to go under. I was scared of dying. I don’t want to die.
Elliot: But, you don’t have to go under.
Arista: Well, yeah. But, you know what I mean?
Elliot: Not being in control? But, you already have an epidural.
Arista: Yes, exactly.
Elliot: But, I guess being kind of open is–
Arista: Yeah. It was just something I hadn’t prepared for. And so, I didn’t really know how I would feel and it just felt very scary.
Elliot: So, fear. But, there’s a lot of fear bubbling up for you. It’s so interesting. Because, in my mind, you’re this incredible badass. “I can do anything,” and you are. And so, I don’t know if you became that through experience or–
Arista: Definitely. I think that’s what, earlier, looking back, to see how much this shaped me to become so much more empowered. I had to go through that moment to get there. Because I was definitely younger, too. And, so much happens in seven years. Especially for me, because I’m always very proud of myself. Like, “You got to do better. You got to grow. You got to be a better than yesterday.” When they told me that, I was like, “Dang it!” Again, the plan didn’t go as planned. And so, I was just being hit left and right with things that were these curveballs that I didn’t feel ready for, but was just like, “Okay. Well, here is the surrender plate, right?” Here it is and the deepest of surrender that I will ever probably experience was in that moment.
And so, I’m under, and the lights are bright, and I’m feeling a little anxious. And, again, I don’t know what that time what that is, but I just have the shortness of breath and I’m trying to relax. And, next thing you know, baby’s out. She’s 8 pounds, 3 ounces, and healthy. They put her right on my chest and she latched on right away. It was such a beautiful experience. But, I was totally out of it. Like, my eyes were closed when she was on me. And so, I just see this slight smile of relief. Like, “Ah, yes. We’re there. Now, I can heal.” But, I wasn’t as alert as I had liked to be, right? The crying when you see your baby and all the pictures that you see. I was just out of it.
And so, at that point, I don’t know how much more you want to know. The hospital experience was great. I had a great team, baby was healthy, and I was healthy. And then, we get home and doing the breastfeeding, and tending to a C-section, which is not fun. I realized in that time like, “Wow! Everyone prepares you for a baby.” They say have the baby shower, and your baby registry, and you’ve got the doula.
Elliot: All that gear and the nursery.
Arista: Yeah. But then, the minute that you get home with your child, and you become a mother, suddenly, and for me, this is how it was, the support kind of disappears. There isn’t that continued, “Okay. Now is the time where you really got to eat well. You got to nourish your body, and your mind, and your spirit, and you got to not overwork yourself,” and all of that. There wasn’t really that reminder for me. And, that was where I was like, “There’s something missing here.” There’s a big gap in postpartum time where mothers, I feel, aren’t getting nurtured because I experienced that. I don’t have a big family. I didn’t have the aunts, and the cousins, and everyone coming, and rubbing my feet, and doing all this. And so, I had to bring least seek that out for myself.
Luckily, I found Bellibind, Princess, whom you know. She came. I mean, helped provide that care for me, which was so amazing. I realized in that moment like, “Wow! This is gold.” For someone that just got ripped open essentially, and brought a child into the world. And then, to be able to receive and feel that comfort was really special. And so, I ended up trying to find things like that, but it wasn’t until the seventh week mark with baby in being home that I knew I needed that because my C-section got infected.
Elliot: Oh, no.
Arista: Yeah.
Elliot: How did that present?
Arista: I remember it was a fleshy wound. I remember looking down and I had staples. I wanted stitches, and I don’t know what happened there. But, she ended up using staples. I’m pretty sensitive to metals. I know when I was younger, if I wore fake earrings or anything or even fake bracelets, I would freak out.
Elliot: My kids are like that.
Arista: Yeah. And so, I was maybe that was that. But, also, hospital germs. It could be so many things. I remember looking down, and I was in a lot of pain. But, again, I had nothing to compare it to. I thought that pain that I was feeling every time I had to go to the bathroom was just normal, and come to find, it wasn’t. And so, it was the infection that was brewing. And then, it was starting to pus. It’s super gross. It looked like my skin was eating itself, a flesh sheet. Yeah. It was very scary.
I sent a picture to the OB. She’s like, “Oh, my gosh. I have to rush you right away. You need to go see the specialist.” I’m like, “Wait. What?” Like, with a seven-day baby–
Elliot: Recovering from surgery.
Arista: You’ve got be kidding! And so, we’re rushing. We don’t even really have a car seat or anything. We’re trying to figure it out because we were kind of taking our time with all the gear stuff. So, we rushed to the specialist, and he sees, and he’s like, “Oh, I have to drain this.”
Elliot: Oh, no.
Arista: In his office.
Elliot: Oh, right there.
Arista: Right there. He’s like, “I have to take out three of the staples on the right side.” I’m like, “What?” He went in for it, and oh, that pain. Just more pain, more pain. It’s like, “Okay. Here we are.” And so, he drained it. And then, had to stuff it with gauze. He’s like, “So, you’re going to heal kind of weird. Like, it’s going to heal over the gauze. You can always come back and have cosmetic surgery for that area. But, this is the best we could do.”
Elliot: Oh, my goodness. Really?
Arista: Yeah. He’s like, “You’re going to have to have a nurse come every day and stuff that area with gauze. Clean it, take it out. They would roll the gauze, really small. Stuff it in there in between my skin.”
Elliot: Pack it.
Arista: It was just, “Ugh.” It was terrible. So, got home. And then, I deal with that. Have nurses come every day, and take care of that. And then, I got mastitis twice. Because I was really stressed and just over exerting myself. I wasn’t resting because, what is rest even when you are trying to breastfeed, and you’re up, and sleep deprived. I couldn’t sleep. That was really brutal.
Elliot: Okay. Just to recap. You’re like, “I’m not going to have kids.” And then, you get pregnant because of the butterfly. And then, you’re like, “I’m going to do a home birth.” And then, sort of blackout, panic for three days in labor. But, I will say this one word you used during that part of your story, four or five times, is “excruciating.” And then, after that, you said, “Then this happened. I got more painful.” I’m like, “What’s more painful than excruciating?” And then, a surgery, which also terrified you. And then, complications from surgery. So, that’s where we are in the story at this point in a nutshell. But, the story continues because now you have another baby and we’re going to get there. But, let’s take a quick break before we do.
[Break]
Elliot: Welcome back. We’re talking to Arista Ilona. And so, we just recapped the whole story before the break. And now, things have turned again because you have a baby. So, flash forward seven years. I mean, you could recap what happened there, but I’d love to get into this most recent pregnancy and birth.
Arista: Yeah. So, Sophia. She’s 9 months. She’s amazing. And, this pregnancy, after having Aiya, I was an only child and I didn’t want her to be an only child. So, even though it was, “Okay. I don’t know that I can do it again.” Once she turned five, I felt like myself again. Like, I felt I was coming back online but I had gotten pregnant when she was three, and unfortunately had a miscarriage.
Elliot: Oh. I’m sorry.
Arista: Six weeks.
Elliot: When Aiya was three?
Arista: Yes. And so, I had to take a pause. I was like, “I need to pause here.”
Elliot: So, that one was an intentional pregnancy?
Arista: That one was if it happens, it happens kind of thing.
Elliot: Oh, one of those?
Arista: Yeah. And so, I was so excited about it and I felt so happy. Because I was, “Oh, three years. That’s a perfect gap.” And, that happened on New Year’s.
Elliot: Oh, my goodness. It’s because you didn’t get a butterfly.
Arista: Exactly. Where was my butterfly?
Elliot: Obviously. Oh, sorry. That’s so hard. Especially, you, struggling to make the choice to get pregnant, then getting pregnant, and then losing it.
Arista: Yeah. And so, I was trying to figure out what happened there. My doctor had said, “Your progesterone levels were low.” And so, I was on a progesterone cream for quite some time. But also, just took a pause and took a step back. And then, fast forward to when I was five, got pregnant again, and lost that one, too.
Elliot: Oh, no.
Arista: Yeah. That one was at 8 weeks. I’m like, “What is going on?”
Elliot: Was that another if it happens, it happens?
Arista: Yes. And, that one, I didn’t feel very well. I don’t know even how to describe it today. But, I was stuck in bed for three days. I was crying. I was depressed. I didn’t feel myself. And so, I kind of had a feeling something was wrong, and I just didn’t know what. And then, when I started getting cramping — I was out at dinner with my best friend, I was bleeding. And so, I was like, “Oh, no. Not this again.” Because I knew it from the first time around, and yeah. And so, that was a bummer.
And then, Sophia came. We were actually in Hawaii. And, that one I think, we were definitely hoping and trying. But, Hawaii does that to you! If you’ve ever been, you feel so romantic, and just lovey, and there’s that island is so funny. We were like, “Okay. We’re on this island, and by ourselves, and so why not?” And then, I ended up pregnant. And, this time, I felt great and nothing was going wrong. I had a great pregnancy towards the end. I started feeling a lot of pain, and it was only when I had to go to the bathroom and pee. I just didn’t know what that was. I figured like, “Oh, maybe it’s for my C-section.” Like, the infection and the right side’s a little weak, and maybe the pressure from her is causing this weird pain. That in the middle of the night, I would wake up, and have to crutch over, and walk, and hold, and put pressure on my stomach to release the pee. And then, I would feel relieved.
Elliot: That does not sound normal at all.
Arista: Yeah.
Elliot: Is it something you talked to your doctor about?
Arista: I did, yeah. I did it. She didn’t really say much about it. She was like, “Oh. Well, you have one ovary. You had a cyst there in the past.” It wasn’t really discussed in detail.
Elliot: Because that’s not one of those things that you get like, “Oh, it’s just pregnancy.” That’s the standard answer for most things, but that’s not even one of those things that would warrant that answer. Does not sound something common in pregnancy. I don’t know where that’s headed. But, before we go down that path, did you have thoughts on how you wanted to deliver Sophia?
Arista: Yes. This time, because of what I went through with Aiya, I was full-on force hospital.
Elliot: Okay. Full-force hospital, with meds.
Arista: Yep.
Elliot: Okay. Since you had already been through a cesarean — I mean, because that’s the first choice usually. It’s just you got to think about is, “Now, am I going to try for a vaginal birth or go for a repeat the same?”
Arista: Yeah. I did want to try VBAC, which is vaginal birth after cesarean. But, I told my doctor I want to wait and see how the pregnancy progressed to see how things were going, and her placement, how I felt. And, she was totally on board with that. She was like, “Yeah. No problem.”
But then, as that pain was coming on around six, seven months, I started to get concerned. And, that was kind of my own mama intuition where I was like, “Well, I don’t know that I want to wait for my water to break having this pain.” Like, I just don’t want to have another crazy, scary convocation issue, where I rupture, and it could be even scarier, which is how would that even be possible from my first experience which was already scary. So, I wanted to try to dodge as much as I could from the unexpected. And, knowing that I’ve had a C-section before, I knew what to expect.
Elliot: Okay. So, it wasn’t that panicky?
Arista: Yeah, exactly.
Elliot: And, what’s, “I can’t have surgery.” But, also, just because you said, “What if I rupture?” People are not familiar with VBAC. Because during the original cesarean, there’s an incision made in the uterus itself to get the baby out, and that is repaired. The concern is what if during the throes of labor, the buildup of intensity during labor, the scar doesn’t hold it together it starts to separate or pop open, the medical term: uterine rupture. So, that was on your mind as well.
Arista: Yeah. And, I know what is it the amount you can wait is two years is recommended, right?
Elliot: Yeah.
Arista: Even though it was six years, I still was like, “I don’t know.”
Elliot: Yeah. It seems like those should have healed by then.
Arista: Yeah. Because of the infection, I just was like, “I don’t know. It might be a little weird in there.”
Elliot: A little weird in there. But, that’s what was on my mind. I mean, it’s the more topical incision didn’t heal well, how do we know that the one deeper down did?
Arista: Exactly. So, I went with my gut. And then, I decided to choose a date.
Elliot: That’s fun.
Arista: Delivery date, which was June 22nd. My dad was super happy because that’s his birthday.
Elliot: Oh, that’s my parents’ anniversary.
Arista: Nice.
Elliot: Wait a second. So, go with the delivery day for induction, or just you made the decision; repeat C.
Arista: Yes.
Elliot: You’re just feeling something strange in the neighborhood. Okay.
Arista: Finally, because it was starting to get a little bit more intense. As the pregnancy prolonged, the heavier she would get. The more that pain was starting to feel like sharp pains. I just was like, “Ah! It just doesn’t feel normal.” I remember having to put heating pads on it. I rested a lot. It was, “I probably shouldn’t be doing too much right now.” So, I was almost like putting myself on bedrest, to be honest. I just was kind of listening, not “kind of.” I was listening to my body in towards the end of the pregnancy because I just didn’t want anything to happen. Especially, because of the two previous losses.
So, we picked a date. And then, the day came. I remember just feeling I wanted to move really slow that day. It was like thunder storming and all that. I didn’t get the butterfly, but I had a thunderstorm.
Elliot: All nature. Nature’s talking.
Arista: Really? This is weird. It felt I was in the desert. So, we get to the hospital and we’re about 20 minutes late, and we got totally reprimanded. They were like, “Do you see the time?” I was like, “Okay, not today with your attitude.”
Elliot: What? Because you were 20 minutes late to your cesarean appointment?
Arista: Yeah. It was just this whole weird, just not very kind, and not how I want to start my day of going into a very intense surgery. I was like, “Hey, good morning to you too.”
Elliot: “Can I get you some coffee?”
Arista: Yeah, exactly. I was just like, “Okay, whatever.” Get into the room. And, I should clarify that this is a new partner, and it’s my husband, and he’s amazing. And so, it’s not the same person as the first pregnancy. I had split up.
Elliot: Was that the same for the two miscarriages as well?
Arista: Yes. I have a whole new life.
Elliot: A good support, and good support then as well.
Arista: Yeah. We’re in the room, and they’re like, “Oh, yeah. You are having small contractions.” I was like, “Yeah. I can feel that.” They were putting me on the belly monitor, and just waiting. And then, I get a call from my OB and she’s like, “You’re late. I can’t see you. And so, we’re going to have to schedule a different day.” I was like, “Okay.”
Elliot: What? They moved your birth?
Arista: Yep. She was like, “This is pushing all the births back, and my surgeries.” I was like, “Alright. Whatever.” I didn’t want to be stressed. I was like, “Everything for a reason.” And so, we went home, got sent home, and I’m like, “Okay, cool. So, my now rescheduled C-section is like three days from now. But, what if my water broke tonight or tomorrow?” I mean, it’s kind of one of those things where you’d have to be available. So then, it moved from the 22nd to the 24th, which was a Friday and it was a way better experience going back, like reset. So, we go back and this time, we’re even more prepared because my husband had his bags and everything ready. Like, this time it’s like, “Okay. Now, I really didn’t forget anything.”
Elliot: It’s a do-over.
Arista: Yeah, exactly. So, we’re there and I’m still a little nervous to do the C-section. It’s still scary. The lights and all of that. But, I’m not as scared because I knew what to expect, and I also trusted my doctor, and I chose her specifically for a reason. I knew she was the best for what I was wanting. We get there and have my husband next to me. And then, all of a sudden things started to feel a little weird as we’re in the operating room. It gets a little bit quiet. I’m like, “Oh, what is going on?” And, starting to feel a little of tugging. The anesthesiologist was like, “Are you feeling anything?” He could tell on my face that it was uncomfortable. I was like, “Yeah. I’m feeling burning.” He’s like, “Oh, you shouldn’t be feeling that.” And so, he upped the dose. And, in that moment, I didn’t know it, but they had found a ton of scar tissue that was all on my right side that had traveled up. I don’t know if she — she had mentioned maybe from the infection, but the scar tissue wrapped around my uterus and bladder.
Elliot: Oh, my gosh.
Arista: It’s twisted over towards the right.
Elliot: Like it pulled it?
Arista: Yes.
Elliot: Oh, my goodness. So, that’s what you were feeling when you would have to pee and things?
Arista: Yep. I was like, “Okay. Now, it makes sense.” And so, the scar tissue was all around. So, she’s like, “We have to take more time. Like, the C-section is there, but we need to take more time to scrape as much of this as we can out.”
Elliot: I’m glad she had time and didn’t have to reschedule you until Monday.
Arista: At that point, the partner that the doctor that was with her was not the one that was scheduled with her on the 22nd. She later had told me like, “I’m so glad you were late. Because if it was that day and we opened you up, might not have been able to really tend to we wanted to on this date with this doctor.” I was like, “Well, great. Everything for a reason.”
Elliot: I guess so.
Arista: Yeah. It all worked out. I had a great team and the nurses were amazing. They were doing that and she’s like, “You also had a window uterus,” which you know they could see the baby.
Elliot: Oh, through the scar you mean?
Arista: Yeah. It’s just that clear. She was like, “The minute I opened you up, I could just see her right there.”
Elliot: Okay. So, that’s what they’re saying. The scar thinned out so much like didn’t separate, but thinned out so much that you could essentially see through it.
Arista: Yes.
Elliot: Wow.
Arista: I was like, “Okay.” Well, I think I dodged a bullet, right? You don’t know, you’ll never really know, but I’m glad that I went with a decision that I went with based off of what I was feeling towards the end of my pregnancy. And so, she was born. She was what, 6? No, 7.1, 7 pounds and 1 ounce. Just cried. In that one, I was more alert and I immediately cried. And then, she pooped on me. So, that was cool.
Yes. I just had these extensions, and it was like I’m going to be like Jlo, and Halo. I had just done my hair that day, took a shower, was going to go in all cute into surgery. And, next thing you know, I’m like, “I feel wet down my neck.” And then, the nurse was like, “Oh, she pooped on you! Her first poop.” I’m like, “Okay. Can we wipe me down?” And, “Oh, that’s the…” What did she say? It’s some medical term. It’s vital poop, “It’s a good poop. It’s healthy for you.” Like, “That’s great. But, I don’t really need poop body washer.”
Elliot: You never know, that’s how those things get started. It sounds like, once again, you needed the mist.
Arista: Yeah. It’s going to come up with a line, just like baby poo lotion. Oh, my goodness.
Elliot: I guess I have that coffee that some animal–
Arista: Like that animal eats or something?
Elliot: Yeah, exactly.
Arista: No, thank you. So, that was hilarious and I call her “Poopsie” now. The anesthesiologist, she’s like, “Can someone wipe her down?” He was so concerned. It was so cute. But, yeah, just all of my extensions. There went that cute, planning to be cute. Just, nope. And then, she right away, latched on, and it was beautiful. Everything was so sweet and amazing. In the hospital, I was there for four or five days.
Elliot: How was recovery?
Arista: Recovery was great. I was more prepared this time. I had meals prepared. I had my dad’s wife make me amazing a banga soup from Mexico, and cocido soup, which was very, very soothing for me. We had my little food tray ready to go, and we set up our guest bedroom and had just a very womb-like experience together as a family. Aiya got to meet her baby sister, and it was really beautiful. I felt so supported. My mother-in-law came in from Florida. I had such, such a different experience than the first time around. It was not traumatic.
Elliot: Therapeutic?
Arista: Yes. I think also because I knew what I was getting into, but also having a supportive partner, and a family, and feeling like I arrived to the point like, “Ah, I get it now.” I get why this is such a sacred and beautiful mission for women, and also for men to step into the role as a father, and husband, and all of the things. I, in that moment, was like, “Wow! This is such a beautiful gift to be given and to take on. As hard as it is, there is that beauty to it.”
Elliot: What a journey.
Arista: Yeah. It’s still going, but it’s great.
Elliot: What a journey. Just the whole thing from childhood on up to today. Very, very intense powerful journey. I mean, what are your take-home messages from your own experiences?
Arista: Honestly, I’d say looking back or just overall? Like, if I could tell anything to my younger self, is don’t be so hard in yourself. There is no such thing as perfection. With my first pregnancy, the thing I kept telling myself was motherhood isn’t about perfection, it’s about transformation. That was kind of my own little mantra that I started repeating to myself, that I still to this day do. Because it is so telling. I think we were very, very hard on ourselves as women to get everything right, and to be the perfect mom, and to not have mom guilt, and to always be on, and then we put ourselves last. It’s just never-ending. It’s really not about any of that. It’s really on the deepest level of transforming all of the things that you thought was how it was supposed to be, and when everyone told you how to be, and how to do things. Transforming that into what you value, and what it is that is beautiful for you and your family, and how you’re creating your home life, and that’s okay. I just learned not to be so, so hard on myself with what everyone thought about my story, right? Because I had a lot of that shame in the beginning. To really transform that into something that was my soul wellness.
Elliot: Well, I think at this point, I need some wellness, too.
Arista: I got some for you.
Elliot: Thank you. Okay. We promised a little teaser at the beginning that we have a little announcement to make, and here it is. We started this new platform in Informed Pregnancy Plus with streaming video content, with the same mission as all the other Informed Pregnancy projects, which is to just expose, give you access to information, stories, anything that you can use to become more informed, more empowered, and make choices, and find support for the choices that you make.
Arista has agreed to do a series called “Empowered Mama,” and it’ll be kicking off next month from the time of this recording is April, which is a Cesarean Awareness Month. And, Arista has a whole series of interviews with women who had cesarean birth, and that’s going to be the first month of “Empowered Mama.”
Arista: I’m excited. Thank you so much.
Elliot: I am very excited. I mean, your own transformation. And then, just throw on to that your skills from all your years of radio, media, and entertainment. These are going to be powerful, powerful episodes, powerful stories, and they’re going to help a lot of people. So, look out for “Empowered Mama” with Arista Ilona on Informed Pregnancy Plus, which you can access at informpregnancy.tv, or through apps on Apple, Android, and Roku.
Arista, I appreciate you so much on so many levels. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing so openly. I can’t wait till we get to sit down with the team and plow through your old birth video number one.
Arista: Thank you. I’m so, so honored. I just feel so grateful to know you, and all the relief that you’ve given me in my pregnancies. And, to so many women, you’re amazing.
Elliot: Oh, thank you. Where can we find you online, besides Informed Pregnancy Plus?
Arista: Yes. On Instagram. It is @ilonabotanica. So, that’s I-L-O-N-A-B-O-T-A-N-I-C-A. I do have a personal page, it’s @AristaIlona. But, unfortunately, I got locked out of it. So, it’s that’s a whole other story. Yeah, it’s just @IlonaBotanica.
Elliot: @IlonaBotanica, that’s all we need. I’m going to go get some mist.
Arista: Okay. Thank you so much for sharing my story.
Elliot: Oh, my pleasure. And, at home, in addition to Informed Pregnancy Plus, you can find all of our media, the podcast, the blog, and the videos at informedpregnancy.com.
Elliot: Welcome to the Informed Pregnancy and Parenting Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Elliot Berlin. My guest today is an acclaimed actress originally from Bombay, India, who has captured audiences worldwide with her performances and award-winning films such as “Slumdog Millionaire,” “Rise of the Planet Apes,” and the “Immortals.” In addition to her incredible acting skills and career success, she is also a passionate advocate for women’s rights and a dedicated humanitarian. Today, we’ll discuss her journey through motherhood, including some of the differences between Indian and American birth culture. Freida Pinto, welcome to the podcast.
Freida: Thank you so much, Doc. It’s so lovely to be on your podcast. I might have told you that the first time I heard of your podcast was through Mandy Moore. Because she had reposted some of the videos and I started going deeper and deeper and deeper down into your other episodes and guests, and I just found it so informative. I’m a very happy that you’re in my life and being very happy on many, many mother’s lives.
Elliot: Oh, thank you so much. That means the world to me. Especially coming from you, such a giver. Let’s start at the beginning. You’re from Bombay, what was that like growing up?
Freida: Very, very transformative. I can say that now, in retrospect. Because, obviously, when you’re a child, you’re not thinking about, “This is going to be actually a very important experience in my life,” growing up in a culture which is so diverse, so secular, we have all these various religions that coexist in India. We have different people of different classes that coexist in India, in Bombay specifically. I was too young to understand how that was going to shape me or inform how I look at the world, and how open I will be to different opinions and different people. It really shapes up tolerance.
So, I really do credit my upbringing, my childhood in India, in Bombay, to being the open person that I can be today. Even though we’re just surrounded by Indians. No other people from other countries. But there is a lot that is going on within that beautiful, big complex country and definitely complexity. What do you want to specifically know about my childhood? Because there’s so much to it.
Elliot: Well, I don’t know. You’re kind of an amazing person today, so I always wonder where that came from and how it was nurtured. Do you have siblings?
Freida: I do. I have an older sister who is four years older than I am. When we were growing up, I really looked up to her and wanted to emulate her. I wanted her used clothes. I was all about hand-me-downs. Don’t buy me new stuff. What my sister had, I wanted, and she kind of found that very annoying. I was a typical younger sister who was just like following her around everywhere, wanted to live in her shadow. She just found that like her little baby past, and she loved me for that. But she also wanted me away from her.
Like, siblings go through sometimes in their lives, we had moments where we were close, moments where we were not so close. And now, we’re inseparable. We’re like each other’s best friends. I rely on her for her wisdom and her perspective on life, which is different from mine, but also complementary, if that makes sense. I think I almost need someone like her in my life to make sense of what I am going through. I have great perspective, too. I would like to believe. We share that with each other. I think we’re just so bonded. We’re so close to each other.
Elliot: Did you guys leave India for travel?
Freida: Together? Yes, we did. We traveled much later in life outside India. We went to Barcelona. In fact, she was sending me pictures about this fun trip we had when we went to Barcelona. When I was nominated to the BAFTA, she traveled with me, with my mom, to London. That was a lovely experience. But I will tell you, India is such a diverse country. You can find this landscapes and scenes that you see in, let’s say Switzerland, or Morocco, Afghanistan, or the beautiful beaches of Southeast Asia. You can find a little bit of all of that in India.
And so, my parents made it a point that we traveled and really got to know our country. My mom’s brother was in the military, in the army, in the armed forces. And so, he was always posted somewhere in India, and we would go and visit him. From there, use that as an opportunity to see more of India. India is so diverse. I mean, there’s just so much to see. I still don’t feel I’ve seen it all. But my sister and I did make a lot of travels, trips, some vacations together within the country.
Elliot: How did you get into acting?
Freida: I think a part of it was that it was kind of ingrained in my DNA even before I knew it. I have a very dramatic godmother, my mom’s sister. My mom can be very dramatic, but it’s all not professionally used but somehow used in family life and everyday life. I think I inherited it from them.
And, my dad always says this. That if I became a doctor or an engineer, he’d be very worried for me because he just knew from the very beginning I wouldn’t be happy, that isn’t what I was cut out to do. They saw me being creative from the time I was really, really little. I should tell you, I was born in a middle-class family, born and raised as a good Catholic girl. I went to Sunday school. Part of the reason why I enjoyed going to Sunday school was not necessarily being immersed in religion or Catholicism, or any of that. It was really the extracurricular that I found to be very much part of it, which is I was allowed to write and perform my own play. I was always writing. I conducted the children’s choir.
Elliot: Oh, wow.
Freida: Yeah, I did that. I was very passionate about it. One of the things that I always — my sister actually reminded me and I feel like even before I knew it, it was already my life’s mission. I love watching other people shine. I love being part of that journey when someone is shining. I love being someone who either set up the foundation, or came while the foundation was already set, and just kind of mentored or set someone forward. I just love the activity of doing that. I think that has informed the producer in me without even knowing that it was I was already doing it. That was what I feel like I already had cemented my place in the creative world, in the producing world, very early on.
And so, acting happened, I think it was all about being in the right place in the right time. I started off as a model, wasn’t interested in it because no one wanted my opinion and I had a lot of them. I wanted to be part of the journey of creating a photograph, or creating a video. I was always told to just shut up and do the work, “Just do what you’ve been told. You’re a model. Just stand there and smile.” You know what? There’s a time and place for that, and maybe I had way too many opinions but I just knew that was not for me.
And then, I hosted a travel show and I traveled all over Southeast Asia. I traveled to the Fiji Islands for the first time, which is Asia Pacific, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand. Like travel, travel, travel. Loved it so much. Just when that show was coming to an end after nine months, I literally felt, “Oh my God! This is the end of my life. What am I going to do next?” And then, started this six-month-long audition process for a little film that we did not know was going to be called “Slumdog Millionaire.” It was just a little film that I ran an audition for, and there were at least like 3,000, 4,000 other hopefuls all over the world old. And so, I really feel right place, right time, passion, manifestation, always wanted to do this. That’s where I landed. That’s the start of my career.
Elliot: Okay. The travel show around Asia sounds amazing.
Freida: It’s so good. So good. I don’t know! Sometimes, I really talk about [unin], but I really enjoyed it. I was like, “This is a pillar!” sometimes, there is really nothing to show. So, I just talk about a pillar. But, anyway, I really enjoyed it. It really opened my eyes. I traveled so much within India, and it really opened my eyes to culture to — again, respecting things that were different from how I was raised or who I was.
Elliot: You said six-month audition process.
Freida: Very long.
Elliot: What happens over six months?
Freida: Have you seen the film? Have you seen “Slumdog Millionaire?”
Elliot: I haven’t seen it.
Freida: Okay. You haven’t seen it. Okay. There are three age groups in the film. My character’s name is Latika in the film. There is a little Latika, and then a teenage Latika, and then — not adult Latika. Like, I wouldn’t say. I was like 14-year-old, 13-year-old Latika, and then a 17-year-old. I was supposed to be the 17-year-old.
But when we started the audition process, they auditioned me for someone even younger. They thought they were going to shift all the ages. You can only imagine the task that the casting director has upon her, and the entire team has upon them, to find the right children to teenager, to slightly older teenager, to kind of resemble each other. Don’t have to necessarily resemble each other, but feel like they’re part of the same story.
As frustrating as it was for me, because I was like, “I know you like me because I’ve been narrowed down to like the final 10. Just give me the part.” But, they have to find the older character first, and they had to find the main male lead first, and then match us all. It was like a jigsaw puzzle. We really had to put it all together. I feel like those six months auditioning for the film with Danny Boyle, wonderful, wonderful British director. I mean, literally, made me who I am today, was actually my acting course in a way. I was going in every time. They were throwing in new challenges, new hurdles. Also testing my patience. Also testing my level of commitment and dedication. I feel like it was like a mini acting school for me. I’ve never been to acting school, or drama school rather. This was like that course for me.
Elliot: Still today?
Freida: I still haven’t been there.
Elliot: That’s so interesting. So, on-the-job learning?
Freida: On the job learning, yeah.
Elliot: Wow. Okay. Growing up in India, were you inspired by any particular type of entertainment? What were you exposed to? What did you long for?
Freida: That’s a very good question. My father loved old films from the Indian cinema. The Indian film industry is kind of very robust. We have the typical commercial films. But then, we also have something that they call arthouse films, which gets like a negative connotation in India, that it is slow and boring, but it isn’t. They’re very, very well artfully done. But, those were the films that my father really exposed me to.
There’s this actress, who I still say is my role model. She passed away in 1984; Smita Patil. She was absolutely brilliant, absolutely brilliant. We might just have to check the age, edit 1984. I’m not entirely sure, but I think it is 1984. And so, Smita Patil, she was kind of a revolutionary of her time. She would play these female protagonist roles that were groundbreaking, that were bold, that were taking a stand, that was against the patriarchy. I just found it to be just so inspiring because that was not what we were necessarily always surrounded by growing up in India and cinema. But, the roles that she took on really informed that if I ever did something, I wanted to feel that got a role and that like it’s coming from deep within my body. It is matched with my instinct.
Those are the films that my father exposed me to. And then, when I went to college, I studied film and literature, which is one of my subjects when I was studying English literature. I was exposed to a lot of world cinema. And, [unin] became one of my favorite filmmakers. I still feel they, I still harbor the hope that one day I’ll get to work with him.
Elliot: Was it a conscious choice? Because it looks like most of your work is in the British and U.S. industry. Was it a conscious choice to not pursue Indian film?
Freida: Wasn’t a conscious choice at all. It was just about going with the flow, really keeping my eyes open to what was being presented to me. I really trust that there is a force that is greater than us. Some call it God, some call it the universe, call it whatever you might want to. But, I feel there’s a force and that this field of energy that we all feed off. If you kind of just stay committed to putting out what you really want to do, and then going with the flow, I think it just leads you to your — it shows, starts showing you the path. That’s exactly what I felt.
Because listen, “Slumdog Millionaire” was going straight to DVD. A lot of people don’t know this. This was the year of the recession, like Warner Brother was the studio that the film was going to be released under, our distribution angle. They were folding in, and we were going straight to DVD. This middle film was never going to be seen by anybody probably. And then, somehow, we got into the Toronto Film Festival. All of us actors, nobody knows us it. We’ve never done a movie before. We’re just literally nobody’s at this point in time. We walk down the red carpet. Again, a very funny story.
There was no press at the red carpet. Because they were like, “Who are these kids?” Like, “Why should we come and take their photographs?” We have to hire our own photographs and basically stage our own red carpet. And then, release those photos because we had nothing. It was all done in the most playful, innocent way because we were not thinking of the coming stars. We were just happy that the film finally got a chance, that people were going to watch it. We got a standing ovation at the end of the movie. From then on, it was non-stop. That just made me realize that if I don’t seize the opportunity and go with the flow, then this one will be gone too. Just stay open and just go with the flow, and that’s how it happened. There was no conscious decision to be part of Hollywood. There was no conscious decision to just do British cinema or not to Indian cinema. It was just going with the flow.
But, I will tell you when I was very, very young, I would have this vision that I was on a world stage. Now, I don’t know what that really meant. Because my Sunday school teacher asked me the question like, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” Typical question you ask every kid. I said something like, “I want to stand on the world stage, and I want what I do to make a difference.” That’s all I remember, and I don’t know why I said that. She still reminds me that I did. I actually remember that I did say that. So, yeah, just following my path.
Elliot: You’ve only grown from there. Before we jump into your new role as a mother, do you have a favorite role that you played and something on your wish list that you hope to do?
Freida: Yeah. One of my favorite roles that I played was this TV show called, “Gorilla.” It was on Showtime and Sky Atlantic in the UK. It came at a time when I — various reasons. I think the role was beautifully written, super radical, very required. It was also very misunderstood when the TV show came out. It felt like I was taking away roles from other people, from other communities, but actually that wasn’t true. There was a lot of true inspiration behind the character that I played.
However, despite the backlash the show got, I realized how proud I was of the role. That no amount of backlash could make me not feel proud of it, or no amount of backlash to make me regret it. That just made me realize, I had grown in my profession. That I was fully committed and that I was fully taking responsibility. I went into it with my eyes open, and I walked out of it with my eyes even more open.
Elliot: Wow, that’s so powerful. That’s so powerful. Wow! What a distance from when you were modeling, and they were just like, “Shut up and…”
Freida: “Shut up and pose!”
Elliot: Yeah. And then, what about aspiration? Something you’d like to do.
Freida: Yes. Something I’d like to do. There’s a lot that I would like to do. But I think, from the point of view, I do a lot of drama. I should just say that. I do a lot of drama. I’ve attempted comedy, and I do like it. But, one thing that I’m really hoping to do is a really memorable rom-com. Because there are many rom-coms, right? There are many, many rom-coms. A memorable rom-com would be “Bridget Jones Diary.” I’m really hoping to do a memorable one.
Elliot: Well, I’ll watch that.
Freida: Yeah, I know you will.
Elliot: I always feel bad because I don’t really watch TV and movies because of my face blindness. When a character comes out, and then goes away, and comes out, I’m like, “Who’s that?” Every time. Every time. It’s the most annoying thing for me or for anybody around me. It’s like hard work to try to follow things. But, I will watch your memorable rom-com.
Freida: Okay.
Elliot: Let’s take a little break. When we come back, we’ll find out how you got from there to motherhood, and how that’s going. We’ll be right back.
[Break]
Elliot: Welcome back. We are talking to Freida Pinto. Okay. Now, you don’t live in Bombay anymore. Where do you live now?
Freida: I live between Los Angeles, California and Austin, Texas now. I do go back to Bombay every now and then. It’s been a few years. Actually, I’m going back next week. I’m so excited.
Elliot: Oh, wow. How nice.
Freida: I haven’t gone back in I think almost three years now. Because of the pandemic, I didn’t travel much. And then, I had a baby. So, I didn’t travel much. Home now is between Los Angeles and Austin.
Elliot: How do you like U.S. living?
Freida: I do love it quite a lot. I feel this is my home, and I don’t know where else I would be at this point. The two cities I mentioned have an equal measure, hold importance in my heart, and my growth, and my friendships, and my friends who have become family. Also, Austin, I particularly chose for peace of mind. I love Los Angeles, but I couldn’t be here all year round. There is a certain frenetic energy that I enjoy, but I can also feel very anxious in that frenetic energy all the time. I need to escape every now and then.
Elliot: Need the recharge.
Freida: The recharge, exactly. The recharge. The rethinking what creativity really means. I feel I can do that in more quiet spaces, quiet places. I will say I’ve been talking about the American dream quite a lot. Especially, after this year’s Oscars even more so. There is still in my mind and in my heart, I do believe, that this is still the land of opportunity. It is still unfair in many, many ways. In many ways. And, no country is perfect, neither is India. No country is perfect. But, this country still presents a lot of opportunity. I also believe hard work always pays off.
Elliot: I think that’s true. Oh, everything that you just said, I agree with. How did you meet your partner?
Freida: I met my partner when I was filming in New York. I was filming this TV show called “The Path.” My co-star, Aaron Paul, the loveliest person ever. He loves love. He loves the idea of love. He wants all his friends to be in love, and I was not in love at that point in time. I was living in New York for the first time. It was actually a dream, by the way. I always wanted to live in New York. But, for some reason, I was always working and traveling. And so, L.A. became home base. And then, this travel, this TV show presented its opportunity for me to live in New York. I was living my best single life, going on non-committal dates, and truly enjoying life. And then, Aaron decides to kind of put a little twist to my single life.
He goes, “What kind of guy do you want to date? You see, I feel like you go on a lot of dates. What kind of guy do you want to date?” I was like, “Aaron, don’t match me. Don’t set me up. I am not ready for that. I also don’t want to do that. Because what if this person you know you set me up with, ends up being a d-bag? And then, I have to come back to set and look at your face for the next six months. Don’t do it. Don’t do it. Don’t do it.” He’s very stubborn, and I’m so glad that he’s stubborn, and so full of heart. He introduced me to his best friend, Cory. Because the two things I said was — because he said, what kind of a person you want, right? I just had to kind of shut him up. And so, I just said, “Someone who operates from a place of spontaneity, and someone who just loves travel and culture.” I just left it at that. There you go. The next thing you know, he’s introducing me to his very adventurous friend, Cory, who’s traveled to more than 68 countries.
Elliot: Holy cow!
Freida: Yeah. More than 68 countries. Has literally has a truck and a tent attached to his truck, loves to camp, almost never says no if there’s a plan. Yes, he’s in. It’s amazing that I just said it, and he just knew it. [unin] matchmaker really, really well. Thank you, Aaron Paul.
Elliot: Aaron Paul needs an app.
Freida: He does. He does!
Elliot: Oh, that’s so cool. Okay. And then, how long have you guys been together now?
Freida: We’ve been together now for about 4.5, 5 years. Actually, five years. Have been married for 2 years, yeah.
Elliot: Congratulations.
Freida: Thank you very much.
Elliot: Like, starting a family. Was motherhood, parenting, family something that you had thought about either as a kid or teenager or when you started to date? And, together, how did that come up for you and what kind of thoughts did you have on it together?
Freida: When I was a kid, for sure, I thought of myself having a wedding, and I would get married, and I thought of myself having kids. Most of these things I thought would happen when my mother had kids, which was around the age of 26. I was born when my mom was 30. So, I thought somewhere in the 20s, all of this would happen. But, my gosh, Doc! The 20s are so confounding, and I would never want to be anywhere in my 20s again. Teenage years, great. I wouldn’t mind going back there. Thirty is great. I wouldn’t mind going back there as well, because I’m almost towards the end of my 30s. I’m looking forward to the 40s. But, oh my God!
Elliot: You don’t hear that a lot.
Freida: I am looking forward to my 40s. I hear it gets even better. I mean, I feel better every single day. But, the 20s were really not good.
Elliot: In what way though?
Freida: I really did not know who I was in my 20s. I was really trying to figure things out. I was always left confused. I felt like I had good instincts, but could never really reach out to them. Also, a huge thing happened in the 20s, which is my career. I struck this pot of gold in “Slumdog Millionaire,” and life just changed very dramatically. There was a lot of adjusting to do in my 20s. I actually stopped thinking about kids, and marriage, and all of that stuff. I was somewhere in my late 20s, early 30s, in a very toxic relationship, and I needed to get out of it. Somehow, I found myself going deeper and deeper into it.
And then, a year and a half later when I got out of it, which is when I went to New York, I was like, “Don’t get me anywhere close to the idea of a relationship that could turn into a marriage, and don’t get me anywhere close to the idea of children.” I just ran away from it. I was like, “It’s not for me. It’s not for me.”
My sister kept saying that to me. She goes, “You know, it’s a good phase that you aren’t. Just be in it. Think about it. But also, don’t make final decisions in this phase because I think you’re going to change your mind when you meet someone you really want to partner up with.” Well, that was Cory, who was very sure he wanted to be a dad. Very, very sure. All he wanted to do was be a dad.
On our very first date, I will never forget, it was a lunch date. Because I don’t do dinner dates and drinks if I’m meeting someone for the first time. I do lunch and coffee, which I know is so unromantic for a lot of people, but whatever. That’s how I do it.
Elliot: I don’t know. It seems pretty L.A.
Freida: Yeah. Does it?
Elliot: Does to me.
Freida: Okay, good. Maybe somewhere deep down, I’ve become very L.A., and I don’t realize it. Anyway, I had lunch with Cory in New York. After the lunch, he texts me, “You know we’re going to get married, right? And, I’m going to marry you.” Whoa! I don’t want to ever speak to this person again, but how very interesting as well. I was both attracted and put off at the same time. Let’s say he was right, he was right. He knew it. As I’ve been continued dating Cory and realized that this man doesn’t trigger my anxiety, does not make me feel like, “I have to be on. I don’t have to always be on. I can just be myself.” That’s when I realized, I wasn’t something different for the first time.
Elliot: Wow! That’s pretty powerful, too. You have all these like powerful milestones.
Freida: I think about all of them in retrospect. I think about things now in the moment, because I’m also a mom. I think it has really kind of harnessed my ability to really tap into my instinct and feel confident about it. But, a lot of things I do think of in retrospect as well, “Oh, that happened for a reason. I can see the picture now.” I didn’t see it back then or in that moment. I knew something magical was happening, but I see how it all played out. It’s kind of beautiful. I think some of my stories come from that. The stories that I want to tell.
Elliot: Yeah. What you now.
Freida: Yeah.
Elliot: Once you decided on kids, did pregnancy come easy?
Freida: Pregnancy came very easy. But, the first pregnancy did not stick, and that wasn’t easy at all.
Elliot: Miscarriage.
Freida: A miscarriage, yeah.
Elliot: I’m so sorry.
Freida: Thank you. I never thought that I would ever have a miscarriage. I’m sure most women don’t think that way. But, more so, because as a woman who gets pregnant, you think health is paramount — and, yes, all of that is paramount. Like, you’ve got to be healthy. You’ve got to be rested. All of that stuff is important. But there are other things that are not in your control, and that design is also dependent on what is going on internally and what is going on with the conception. The pregnancy that I had was defined as a triploidy, which is a chromosomal abnormality. The pregnancy wasn’t going to stick anyway. I was in my 12th week. That’s when we couldn’t find the heartbeat, and it completely destroyed me. In that moment — well, I do want to share this because I think it’s very important.
No matter how knowledgeable, or informed, or wise you think you are, I feel somewhere deep down in the DNA of every woman is ingrained some level of guilt, some level of self-blame, and some level of shame. The first thing that came out of my mouth when nurse practitioner is trying to find the heartbeat and she couldn’t find it and she said, “Oh, mama. I can’t find a heartbeat.” She held my hand and the first thing that came out of my mouth was, “Is it because I exercised too hard?”
Elliot: Oh, my goodness.
Freida: I don’t even know how I put that in my head. I couldn’t even stop it. I just blurted it. The next thing I said was, “Is it because I took my thyroid medication too late?” None of it was connected to why I miscarried, but that’s how we all think. Well, it took me a while to come out of it. Luckily, and unluckily for me, I was filming. I was, literally, in the middle of filming a high-octane thriller.
Elliot: Oh, my goodness.
Freida: Where I had to scream, and cry, and then be scared, and run. I had an emergency DNC. This was all in Albuquerque. I found the most amazing MFM in Albuquerque, who supported me, Dr. Ruma. I feel like that was a very eye-opening experience for me. Really, really eye-opening. Because I was not only going through — the pregnancy was actually very hard, the first pregnancy. I always had a lot of back pain. I was very, very nauseous. I could barely eat. It’s always super tired. I did not connect any of that to, “Oh, the pregnancy won’t last.” Because a lot of women have difficult pregnancies, and they go on to have healthy babies.
Elliot: Especially, that part of the pregnancy.
Freida: Correct. I didn’t think of it. I didn’t make much of it. I think it was very eye-opening. Because what I experienced during the months following the miscarriage was very much a little bit like postpartum. Hair loss, hemorrhoids.
Elliot: Physically like postpartum.
Freida: Physically like postpartum. I wasn’t even thinking postpartum, because why would anyone be thinking postpartum when you get pregnant? You’re thinking about the joy of the pregnancy and the discomfort that you might be feeling with the pregnancy. But, you don’t ever think of postpartum. It really opened my eyes to: A, how misunderstood the postpartum journey is. Because it kind of almost hits early on in a miscarriage if you end up going through it. But also, we’re never prepared for it. Never prepared for it.
Elliot: You know what’s so super interesting to me, obviously, miscarriage is pretty common. I only say that now you know, that miscarriage is pretty common, especially in the first trimester. Although, 12 weeks is very hard. The reaction that you had is pretty typical of what I see. A lot of not just sadness, but “What did I do wrong?” More often than not, it’s almost like your body did something right, which was to identify this is a non-compatible with life pregnancy, self-criminate, and get ready to start again. But, what I never thought about until this moment is the postpartum element after a miscarriage. I never thought about that. It makes so much sense.
Freida: It makes a lot of sense. I had someone really important in my life at that point who held my hand through it all. Her name is Elisa Biddy, and she’s written two books. The first one’s called “The Woman Code,” and the second one’s called “In the Flow.” It’s all about hormones, and it’s all about what happens with your body through your menstrual years. But then, also around pregnancy, and then postpartum, and then finally, menopause and beyond. And so, I kind of really reached out to her. I told her I’m experiencing something that I never thought I would experience. I’d never had hemorrhoids. The miscarriage, the emergency DNC that followed that then led to other gut issues, which by the way was also made worse because I was filming night shoots. Eleven continuous nights right after the miscarriage. It was brutal. Absolutely brutal.
No one knew I was pregnant. Hence, no one — just a few people knew that I had a miscarriage because I had to take one day off. I just had to take one day off. And then, I came back. And then, there were these running scenes and whatnot. I had excessive bleeding actually after my emergency DNC, which is why I had to take the one day off. Because I was in the hospital getting bags of blood. It was also now on a mental level, very traumatizing. Because I wanted to mourn, but at the same time, I just wanted to get my job done. I just felt like this was my responsibility. I cannot let down an entire production. And, I also looked at it as a way to escape the pain.
But, when it all got done, when we finally ended up filming, ended up wrapping the movie, I went back to Austin and I just started eating anything and everything I could. Things that were self-sabotaging, things that just felt good at that moment, and that also affects how your body heals. I learned that the hard way and I don’t regret doing any of that. But, it took me a month and a half to recover from what I was putting myself through.
Elliot: I just can’t even know how hard that is to go through just by itself. But then, to just have to like be so on and on camera.
Freida: Full camera.
Elliot: On camera and active. As if nothing happened and surrounded by people who have no idea that this is what you’re going through.
Freida: I remember that my costume — I had to tell my costume department, the head of the department. I had to tell her because I had to wear these pads to absorb the blood loss, which means the way my clothes would fit would also look weird. And so, I had to tell her. The way that the three women from the department stepped in and held me so close. Because most of the project was surrounded by mostly men, and I do not know who to reach out to. I finally told Alexandra, one of our female producers, but I also told the costume department. Gosh, it just makes me so emotional. The way they held space for me every single day just made me feel like I wasn’t alone. Even though it felt like a very lonely experience, I felt like that space was hell for me. The other person I actually want to credit is actually my trainer, Patrick Murphy, who actually introduced me to you as well.
Elliot: Yeah.
Freida: He also held space for me. Because I had to kind of physically stay active in some way shape or form for this film. He tailored and changed everything about my workout routine to just help my body cope through what it was going through. I think all of those elements really came together for me. Last, but not the least, Cory. He literally drove down back from Austin. This was all during the pandemic. Drove back from Austin, stayed with me, and really, really took care of me.
Elliot: Wow. I’m so sorry that you had that difficult experience. I’m glad for you that you were able to find support. It sounds like some really solid support. I’m grateful to you for sharing because, as I say it all the time, it’s a conversation that needs to be had and isn’t had on a wide enough scale. So, thank you. Let’s take another little break. When we come back, we’ll find about your recent pregnancy, birth, and postpartum. We will be right back.
[Break]
Elliot: Hey, welcome back to the podcast. We’re talking to Freida Pinto. Okay. Now, you have a child. How was your pregnancy, your second pregnancy, through the trimesters?
Freida: My second pregnancy wasn’t — again, getting pregnant wasn’t difficult either. Partly, I credit that to my brain that operates like a scientist at times. Which is with my first pregnancy and also my second pregnancy, I tracked everything from ovulation days, and I knew which phase of my menstrual cycle I was, and I was very much on top of it, and very, very in tune with my body. After the miscarriage, after I took about a month and a half to really kind of heal my body and prepare my body once again, it really didn’t take me very long to get pregnant again. I was pregnant four months after my miscarriage, and I was on another film set.
Elliot: Oh, great.
Freida: In Ireland. This time, in a corset.
Elliot: How do you do that?
Freida: I was shooting a period film that I was also producing. I was trying to get this film off the ground for four years. Finally, it happened and I also got pregnant at the same time. Again, on the first day of filming, I literally knew I was pregnant and did not tell anybody. I did tell my co-star. Like, I was saying it changed my perspective on early sharing, my miscarriage. This time around, it was largely a female-driven project as well. I took a lot of people into confidence, and I told them. I also told them I was very nervous and very scared because the miscarriage experience had marred me a little bit, scarred me a little bit, and had made me very anxious. I had enough support from the very beginning.
By the way, this time around, I did everything differently. I did not do any kind of early screening. I just went with my gut, and think. I did call Dr. Ruma from Albuquerque far too many times just to tell him I was scared and nervous. He really encouraged me to just stay with my instinct. He was like, “You’re going to be fine. What has to happen will happen, but you’re going to be fine.” And, it was!
Apart from the bloating, I realized now that one of my biggest tell-tale signs that I’m pregnant is really not my pregnant tummy, it’s my bloating. I bloat immediately when through both these pregnancies, and it was wonderful. I did not have the back pain that I had last time I had. The mild nauseous feeling. I managed to eat bland food through it all. I managed to work out through the entire first trimester with Patrick Murphy. It was a very largely different experience. It baffled me how four months prior to this pregnancy, the previous pregnancy was riddled with so much more pain and discomfort. Like I said, in this movie I was in a corset. Somehow, I got through it and I got through my entire first trimester filming this movie called “Mr. Malcolm’s List” in Ireland. Not a single screening, just keeping myself as healthy as I could. Keeping myself active. Keeping my brain as calm and my mind as calm as I possibly could. That was my first trimester.
Elliot: Did you work through the other trimesters?
Freida: I walked through my second trimester as well.
Elliot: Not in a corset?
Freida: Not in a corset. In a Christmas movie, which you don’t want to see — it was not a pregnant character. But, I had already signed on to the movie. And then, I told the director that, “Hey, you might want to recast me. Because my character — because I’m pregnant, and I’m more than happy to shoot while I’m pregnant. I don’t have an issue shooting while I’m pregnant, but I will be showing somewhere through the filming of this period and this movie.” They were like confident. They could shoot it in ways that you not see my pregnant. Actually, I do believe that you see my pregnancy a little more in “Mr. Malcolm’s List” than you see in the second one.
Elliot: Really?
Freida: Yeah. Because I was so bloated in the first one. Not a lot of people knew that I did have to somehow slip it into the producers, and then the DOP found out, and was trying his best to shoot without like– Also, you don’t think someone is going to be looking pregnant in their first trimester. I feel like my corset did push out at certain points. I was like, “God, release the corset!”
Whereas, the second one, we just can’t shoot certain angles and it was out there in the open. Everyone knew I was pregnant, but it was fun. I had so much fun. I was shooting in London. By the way, all during the pandemic. So, there was a level of fear, which is, “Oh, my God. I don’t want to get sick. I don’t want to be ill.” But, at the same time, there was this excitement that I get to stay active and I get to do the thing I love and make these memories with the child who is soon going to be born.
Elliot: First credits.
Freida: First credit. My gosh, yeah. He was in every film I did
Elliot: What were your thoughts during pregnancy? What influenced your thoughts on how to give birth?
Freida: I think that’s again, a very, very good question. After the miscarriage, my focus had actually shifted from preparing for the trimesters, to preparing for the postpartum journey. That became something that took a lot of importance in my planning head because of what I had experienced. But, because of what I had constantly was told by my American mother friends, that their postpartum journey was brutal, that they had pelvic floor dysfunction, that the doctors didn’t listen to them. And then, they would start sharing their birth stories to me and telling me how certain interventions were forced on them, or they were made to feel scared, that this intervention was required. And so, I kind of backtracked a little bit and I said to myself, “Now, I need to plan what this birth is going to look like, along with the postpartum journey.” I read a book called a “Guide to Childbirth,” by Ina May Gaskin, who is I guess Tennessee’s most acclaimed midwife. I would say America’s most acclaimed midwife.
The first 60 pages of the book are all about various women who have had their babies with phenome gaskin, all of their birth experiences, and how varied they all were. Some of them were having their first child, and some of them were having a V-back, and some of them were having the third child. It was insane how different and vastly different each woman’s experience was. I really took that all in. I absorbed all of that. I sat with all of the stories and started envisioning what I would want my birth to be like.
Now, I did choose Austin to be the place where I would give birth. I did choose a hospital where I would give birth. But, I was very clear to myself, my doctor, and my husband, that I wanted to labor as much as possible at home, in the comfort of my home. I was also very clear that I had a birth intention. I don’t want to say birth plan. Because you can have a plan, but then sometimes, something else might happen which might shift your plan and you just have to stay open to how best you can use this newly thrown curveball into your plan and still make it your own. And so, I had intentions. With intentions, you can mold around it.
My intention was I want to have an unmedicated birth. I wanted to labor on my hands and knees because that’s my most comfortable position. I have a lower back issue, a chronic lower back condition and I wanted to push on hands and knees if the doctor would allow it. Because I know that Western-trained OB-GYNs are not necessarily trained in any other position other than being on the back. I was aware of all of this. I had read all of this in Ina May Gaskin’s book, but I would advocate for myself and my husband and my postpartum doula would advocate for me as much as possible. I will say that 98% of my intentions were met by myself, and by my doctor, and by everyone surrounding me. The 2% that I kind of felt like take the path of least resistance. You are about to push this baby out is when the doctor did not allow me to push on my hands and knees. She put me on my back because I did not have an epidural, and in her mind that would have been the better way to go.
Anyway, path of least resistance, I could hear Cory really advocating for me. “No, she wants to go hand and knees. That feels better for her.” I could hear Jillian, my postpartum doula. I looked at both of them, looked at my doctor, and in the state of like trance-like state, I was like, “We’re not going to argue right now. Because I don’t see her changing her mind and this might turn out into an argument. I will make this as comfortable as possible for me on my back, and let’s go for it.” Rumi came, 10 days early kicking and screaming, six hours of labor.
Elliot: Six?
Freida: Six.
Elliot: Wow. Okay.
Freida: I had a very Hollywood kind of laboring experience. They say you’re water almost never breaks? I had my water break all over my carpet.
Elliot: Oh. At least you’re home.
Freida: At least I’m home. Exactly. I had all of that happen. I was like, “Oh! You told me this almost never happens. It all happens in a hospital, where someone kind of breaks your bag of water.” But, my body did it for itself.
Elliot: Okay. Why was unmedicated important to you?
Freida: It was important to me because, throughout my life, I’ve had this one kind of — I don’t know. It’s not a mantra really, but it’s just something that I believe in. A belief that I want to experience, and feel everything, and be very aware of what I’m feeling, and experiencing, and be very present. I’m also aware of my threshold for pain. I have high pain tolerance. I was aware of that as well. And so, going into it, I knew it was also a mind-of-a-matter kind of thing, and that I was doing pretty well with my yoga and my breathing techniques. I was also inspired by the things that I read in Ina May Gaskin’s book. I kind of really wanted to enjoy what my ancestors enjoyed. If it was written for me.
Elliot: In the end, you did that. What were the sensations that you had?
Freida: I will never forget. I won’t be able to recreate that pain in any which way. I don’t even want to call it pain, because it’s even higher than pain. It’s not painful, it’s out of this world. But, the pressure that I felt in my abdomen, it was almost like it zapped the air out of my body. It literally was like I couldn’t breathe. Like, I was winded. Every time a contraction came by. I remember that it just like put me in this trance-like phase where I was not moaning very loudly. It was just like [whispers]. Like, my breath was just taken away from me and I was finding deeper and deeper and deeper places to go to find new air. Like, almost creating an imaginary lung for myself, two imaginary lungs outside of my body.
It was a very out-of-body experience. I will say this, which is a kind of scary to say it sometimes, but I will say. I will do pushing a baby out without an epidural any day over breastfeeding. Because the initial days of breastfeeding were possibly the most confusing, it almost like kind of demoralized me at times, because it was so difficult. Well, in the end, I breastfed Rumi for 16 months. I still miss them sometimes. But, the initial days of breastfeeding, God! I wasn’t prepared for it.
Elliot: Okay. That brings me to my next question, because I know you were concerned about postpartum. I mean, with breastfeeding being that much of a struggle, that can be helpful on top of everything else that happens postpartum. What was your general postpartum experience? A: how was it and how was it compared to what you thought it would be? And then, B: how did you deal with breastfeeding struggles?
Freida: Yeah. Along with reading Ina May Gaskin’s book, I had read another book by Kimberly Ann Johnson called, “The Fourth Trimester.” Now, I’m not a lot about reading books. And then, because you can’t put a mother in a book, you can’t put a baby in a book. Everyone has their own individual experiences. But, culturally, I come from India, so I was already informed with the wisdom and the knowledge of age-old practices from Ayurveda, and how you help with the postmodern journey, and help mothers cope with the postpartum journey. I knew I could create a postpartum sanctuary for myself, for the physical healing, which will then also have its benefits on mental healing and just taking time to yourself, et cetera.
I had my mom with me from India. I had my postpartum doula. I also had support from my ayurvedic consultant here in Los Angeles. In many ways, I felt like I was cocooned into a space of a lot of warmth, and nurturing, and nourishment. Food-wise, I always say, it’s really important. The first meal that you have at the hospital, or after you’ve given birth, yeah, go out. Do whatever you want to. Just make sure that you’re nourishing your body.
My first meal was a warm broth with chicken and vegetables and rice, and I just wanted it to be that way and felt so nourishing. But then, as I progressed — and my first three months was brilliant, by the way. Brilliant, because I had so much care. But, the breastfeeding journey, I don’t think I could ever be prepared for that. I had done a lactation course just to help myself, understand what I was going through.
But, Rumi had his own plan. He wanted to have a very shallow, interesting latch that only made my nipples hurt and bleed. And, in the middle of the night, feeding. When I would hear him crying and he’d be brought to me, my toes would just curl from the pain I knew I was about to experience. I would literally sit in bed and cry there. “I don’t want to give up. I want to keep going. But why is it so hard? Why is this so hard?” Everything else is — my body is finding its way to come back. And “come back,” by the way. Not snap back to what it was before, but find its place to heal. But, why was breastfeeding so hard? It took me about two months to figure out our little compatibility with breastfeeding. Rumi and I really struggled. I mean, he struggled because I was always in pain, but he got fed. He was properly fed. No problem. But, it was very hard, for sure.
Elliot: This is a warrior mentality that you’re going to get through it. It sounds to me like I would quit.
Freida: If someone wants to quit because it’s really hard, then so be it. There’s nothing wrong in it. Everyone needs to choose what is right for them. I just have a “don’t give up mentality,” which is sometimes doesn’t work in my favor, by the way. In this case, it works out just fine. Because sometimes, it’s okay to give up. It’s really okay to give up. You don’t kind of become a smaller person or a weaker person because you’ve given up. You’ve made a choice for yourself. And, that in itself, is a very strong thing to do.
Elliot: Oh, Freida, you just made me feel a lot better about my hypothetical mom yourself, struggling with postpartum and giving up. A couple more questions as we’re tapering down here. Number one, your postpartum cocoon that you created, sounds very much like how things might have been a century or two ago, where you are just surrounded by people from your family, your village, whatever that is for you, nurturing you, supporting you, and helping you. It sounds like that kind of really worked for you. Would you sort of compare Indian birth culture to U.S. birth culture? Are there things that we can learn from and improve here?
Freida: Yeah, so much. So much because they’re vastly different. There is a very go, go, go competitive comparative “foster is better” mentality here in the United States. Snapback, still, get match again. Like, it’s just very depressing when a woman has just gone through this complete body-opening transformative experience and is then asked to just shut down and pretend like nothing happened, and just get back to work. And so, I feel like on a big high-level level. Policy change is very much required. I mean, six weeks of paid leave will not cut it. In some cases, that doesn’t even exist. As we all know that, that doesn’t even exist.
On a policy level, there’s a lot that needs to be done. On a more familial level and a more community level, I think understanding what that postpartum journey is for a mother, for a new mom, or for a second, third, fourth-time mom is very important. Family members need to understand what they’re walking into. The expectation to just snapback is something that they have to realize is something that the society and the system has put on us, but it is not natural. It is in no ways natural at all. Sorry if you can hear Rumi crying. Can you? If you can’t, it’s fantastic.
I feel making space for a new mom. One of the things I always say, baby showers are huge in this country and people love doing big celebrations on finding the gender of the baby and whatnot. If we can spend our money for our friends, our family members, on helping them access things like a postpartum doula. Because those things are expensive and policy change, as I’m talking about it, insurance doesn’t cover that. It’s brutal. It’s absolutely brutal. It’s expensive. It’s not lost on me that I speak from a place of privilege, that I can actually have access to these things because my money can pay for it, even though my insurance doesn’t. Education about what your body is going through. Basically, helping the mother through meal trains, or subscribing them to some kind of a meal service, helping them have access to a pelvic floor therapist. The first 30 days if possible to really help the mother just rest and recover because a nourished mother is equal to a nourished baby. So, instead of spending money on a new fancy crib, and lots and lots of newborn clothes, which quite frankly the baby never wears. I’ve now seen that. Your baby is in a nappy or a diaper the whole time, so don’t spend the money on that.
Spend on the things that are far more important, which is put the mother first. Put the mother first. I could go on and on, but there’s books and books available out there. I really highly recommend reading Kimberly Ann Johnson’s book, “The Fourth Trimester.” I also recommend reading Ina May Gaskin’s book. There’s information out there on how we can help moms. By the way, if I have to plug in something that I am working on, I have the chief impact officer of a brand a company called “Anya,” where we are providing verified information from resources like ayurvedic consultants, acupuncturists, chiropractors, pelvic floor therapists, OB-GYNs, postpartum doulas, all on their website for free. The subscription is for products. All of that information is available. Not Dr. Google. Go away from Dr. Google. Dr. Google is damaging.
Elliot: Dr. Google speaks so many languages. Alright, Freida. Thank you so much. This has been an incredible episode. I learned a lot. I really appreciate you sharing your personal journey with us. Where can we find you online?
Freida: On my Instagram account, which is @freidapinto. F-R-E-I-D-A Pinto. I don’t do anything. I don’t tweet, and I’m not on Facebook. I’m not a big social media person. But, if I have something important to say, I always find my way to put it out there.
Elliot: Okay. Well, I’ll look for you there on Instagram. One thing I wanted to tell you is we are doing on Informed Pregnancy Plus, a video streaming platform, a series called “Baby Book Nook,” which is a video reviews of books related to pregnancy, parenting, and postpartum. Two of the books on our list are “The Fourth Trimester” and Ina May’s “Guide to Childbirth.” We’ll have them up there pretty soon, and those are two great recommendations from you. We’ll be covering them. Thanks again. At home, if you want to find us online, you can visit informpregnancy.com.
Elliot: Welcome to the Informed Pregnancy Podcast. I’m your host, pregnancy-focused chiropractor, Dr. Elliot Berlin.
You have tuned in to the after episode of a before and after birth story, and I have no idea how things went but we’re all going to find out together. Natalie Dreyfuss, welcome back to the podcast.
Natalie: Thanks for having me.
Elliot: Last time, we talked to you, you were pretty prego. And now, you are not. Congratulations!
Natalie: Thank you. My daughter was born on her due date.
Elliot: On her due date, really? How often does that happen? Less than 5%.
Natalie: Yeah. It was the only day that I was positive she wasn’t coming.
Elliot: Well, I guess that’s motherhood in a nutshell. I wish there was a study of babies born on their due date to see what they turn out like. If there’s anything different about them.
Natalie: Punctual?
Elliot: Punctual? From birth.
Natalie: I’m punctual, so maybe.
Elliot: It’s an honest trait. Okay. You have an interesting pregnancy and life. And then, as you got closer, you found out your baby was breech and you did a whole bunch of things to try to help, and the baby turned.
Natalie: She sure did. I came in and saw you one time, and then she turned the next day.
Elliot: Oh, yeah.
Natalie: I don’t know how many things I really did.
Elliot: I don’t know. You said you saw this video of you guys finding out the baby was head down.
Natalie: I know. I was so excited. Yeah, it was great. She was in a great position for the rest of the pregnancy. My labor was challenging, for sure. Because when she did turn, I think she was a little crooked still just in the pelvis. Like corkscrew out, was not super easy for her. So, not super easy for me either.
Elliot: Well, let’s start with the final days of pregnancy. What were you doing and how did you feel going into birth, mind, body, spirit?
Natalie: It’s funny. It’s been three weeks. Yesterday, three Wednesdays. It just feels like a crazy lifetime ago. It’s the weirdest experience. From what I remember, I had been contracting a ton. I’d had a lot of Braxton Hicks. Mine were really intense. I had heard that you have Braxton Hicks that you may or may not feel beforehand. But, I was unable to talk through some of them or walk through some of them. I was kind of feeling jipped. I was like, “Why am I in so much pain?” Before I even go into labor.
Elliot: How far was that before your due date?
Natalie: I would say week 38, maybe.
Elliot: Okay.
Natalie: Week 38 and 39 had a lot of contractions.
Elliot: Not long after the baby turned.
Natalie: Yeah, not long. I felt like she dropped. Within a few days, she was real low. And then, my contractions already were gearing up. I kept thinking she was going to come early. And then, when the real contractions hit, I was like, “There’s no way she’s going to come on her due date.” I was so sure we had all taken bets on when she was going to show up, and that was the only day I was positive it wasn’t going to be. I had a bunch of friends over that night. It was Tuesday night. Her due date was February 1st. This was Tuesday the 31st or whatever, and I had a bunch of friends over for dinner. I kept saying, “I think this is it. I actually really feel I’m going into labor right now.” We all like, “We should pack your hospital bag.”
Elliot: Really? You didn’t have your hospital bag packed yet?
Natalie: We did. But, my husband’s been like — honestly, the theme of my experience with parenthood so far is just wanting to prepare perfectly is just a hilarious lesson I keep bumping into over and over and over again. I had my hospital bag packed, but I had five hospital bags that were all different.
I was embarrassed that I wanted to bring so much stuff to the hospital. I didn’t want the nurses to judge me because I’d read a million different blogs about what you might need. I was like, “Maybe I’ll need this perennial donut pillow.” We don’t know. “Maybe my perineum is going to need a pillow. I don’t want to bring this big pillow if I don’t need it.” Maybe I’ll put it in the car bag so that the car bag stays in the car, but it’s prepped with all things that would be like, “What? Was she moving into the hospital? Why is she in suitcases?” I was just embarrassed. I had sort of packed it and also just was not deciding to actually take one bag.
And so, my girlfriends were like, “Yeah. We should go finish that.” We all came upstairs and we’re giggling and watching me have these big contractions. I knew it was labor. They start at 2:30 in the afternoon. But, I knew it was labor by 5, 5:30 at night. I was like, “Okay. I’m so pumped with adrenaline right now.” I was like, “I could lift cars.” I was like, “I’m hyped. I’m having a baby!”
Elliot: Wednesday. I’m curious because you said they were intense, your Braxton Hicks, a couple of days before that. What did those feel like? Where did you feel them? Were they pain pressure? What kind of intensity? And then, also, how did it change to make you feel like, “Whoa! This is labor”?
Natalie: Yeah. When I worked with Britta, actually, she helped me to understand the different kinds of contractions with a balloon and a ping-pong ball. And so, she had us blow up a balloon and put a ping-pong ball in it. It was to show what a phase might meant. Also, just what contractions that were actually pushing down would look like, versus a tightening. So, when you push the balloon and the ping-pong ball wouldn’t move down. But, you have to really push it from the top to get that ping-pong ball moving through the balloon. So, that image really stuck with me when I was having this Braxton Hicks. Because I would see my stomach tightening and it would be really, really tight. But, it just didn’t feel like it was productive, if that makes sense. It didn’t feel like it was pushing anything downward. It just felt painful. To me, it was intense. But, it didn’t feel like a downward radiating pressure.
And then, when the real contraction started, I was like, “Oh, I have endometriosis.” So, I know these pains really well. They felt to me very similar to my period pains those couple days a month where I really can’t move. It was very similar to that. At first, I was like, “Oh, good. I know this pain,” and I’ll get breaks. Because during my period, I don’t get any breaks. It’s just a constant stream of pain for 48 hours. I thought, “Oh, this is going to be great. I’ll have minutes in between, and I’ll be able to catch my breath, and then go back into this kind of pain that I already sort of recognized.” I was like, “Great! That’s going to be awesome.”
None of that was true, but that’s what I thought when they first showed up. I was like, “Okay. I know what this is.” I was able to handle it really well. I also was trained well by my doula and Britta as well. Just to go to sleep as soon as I felt my labor pains. That was the main goal. As soon as I felt I was in labor, I was like, “Go to sleep,” because I knew I needed sleep.
Elliot: Yeah. Just to clarify. Britta is Britta Bushnell, who’s a childbirth educator, she’s a Ph.D. in mythology, she’s everything really. Her book is called “Transformed by Birth,” and there’s a lot of wisdom in there. Were the things that you were doing once your searches started similar to things that you had done to cope with endometriosis?
Natalie: Yes and no. I was sort of just in awe and really deciding, “Is this actually happening? Do I want to get excited?” I listened to enough of your podcast to know from all the other stories that don’t necessarily get excited if you feel like you’re going to labor because sometimes it’s not. So, I was really suppressing this feeling of excitement. But, once I realized that my adrenaline was pumping the way that it was, I was like, “I’ve never felt this before. This is just a new sensation in my body.” It made it different to deal with the pain. Because I felt like I could go do a major workout or something because I was amped. Even though I was being stopped with pain every few minutes. I started timing them because they were pretty close together. But, I also knew that didn’t really matter, and that it didn’t really mean much. You got to kind of pace it out. I’ve never given birth before, so I was really trying to pace myself. Like, “Don’t get too excited. It might just go away.”
I was told drink a ton of water because dehydration can make you think you’re in labor. My doula was like, “Nine times out of 10, when I get a call from a client, I tell them to go drink a bunch of water and then call me back.” Before I even called her, I was like, “I’m going to drink a ton of water.” I drink hydration packs and a bunch of water. My contractions were really steady. They didn’t improve with getting in the bath, or the shower, or laying down. So, I was like, “Alright, this is real. This is happening.”
And then, the goal became sleep. I was like, “How am I going to sleep?” My doula had recommended having a glass of wine, or a Benadryl, go to bed. But, that seemed insane to me. Because I was like, “I’m going to be so tired if I take a Benadryl right now, or I don’t really drink.” So, having lots of wines sounded awful.
Elliot: What a contrast from how you’re describing like you just had a Red Bull.
Natalie: Exactly. I was like, “I am ready to run.” I love Nate Bargatze, the comedian. His special came out that night. So, I put Nate’s special on, turned off all the other lights, and was just like, “Let’s get quiet. Let’s watch this.”
Elliot: He is so uniquely hilarious.
Natalie: Isn’t he? Just the most likable, lovely. It just brings me so much joy to watch the specials, and I was so excited that his new one was out the night I was giving birth. I was like, “Yes! What a perfect way to do this.” So, I turned it on and couldn’t watch a minute of it because I was distracted by these labor pains that would take me to this other planet, and I would miss half the joke. I would come back. My partner and my mom were here with me, were laughing, and I was like, “I missed it! I was in the contraction.
I asked them if we could turn it off. And then, we all tried to go to sleep. It was 9 o’clock. They fell asleep like little babies and I was just wide awake. Just in and out of the Jacuzzi, and the shower, and laboring and laboring and laboring. Eventually, I woke my mom up at 4:00 in the morning or 3:00 in the morning. I was like, “Hey, can you labor with me?”
Elliot: Wow! That’s a long time, 9:00 to 4:00, or 9:00 to 3:00, whatever it is. Did you feel lonely at that time? Were you able to get yourself comfortable?
Natalie: Yeah. I was real uncomfortable. I was bummed. I couldn’t sleep. I wasn’t able to be still, so I went out of my bedroom with my partner so he could sleep. I went downstairs and just sort of watched this happen. I was so excited for this whole process to unfold. I just couldn’t wait to see what it was going to teach me. I knew it was going to teach me something. I was like, “This labor is going to teach me some deep things. And, this rite of passage, the way I would put it, it’s not going to be easy.” I’m just so excited to see what it’s like.
Also, your podcast really got me excited to have my own experience. Because when people come on here and talk about their experience, there was just something about listening to everybody’s stories that I was like, “I want my story. I want to know what mine’s going to be.” I was in awe of the whole experience. Just sitting back and watching it happen even though it’s painful. But, I had you in my head too just thinking there’s a difference between pain and suffering. I was like, “I’m not suffering. This hurts, for sure. It’s not fun, but I’m not suffering.” I was really prepared to work my ass off and oh I did! I worked my ass off. Yeah, I really labored hard.
Elliot: When your mom woke up to labor with you, what did she do? How was that helpful to you?
Natalie: It was really fun. I got in her bed with her and we FaceTimed my cousin, who lives in New York. She’s like a sister to me. I knew she’d be awake for work because she works super early. Her and I were chatting while I was laboring. She was really excited for me. And then, they started to get more and more intense. I thought I should talk to my doula. I got in the shower. I knew not to get in the bath necessarily because I didn’t want to slow anything down. I got in the shower. I was standing a lot and letting gravity do its thing. Trying to get on the ball. Eventually, I was just like, “This is intense.”
Elliot: Are you trying to get on the ball in the shower?
Natalie: No. I was in and out of the shower.
Elliot: Was the warm water comforting to you?
Natalie: Yeah. The water was great. The most helpful was the Jacuzzi. I had the Jacuzzi going all night. So, I was in and out outside. And, early morning, I labored in the Jacuzzi for a long time. I turned it to like a reasonable temperature. I called Joni, my doula. Unfortunately, she had an emergency with another client. And so, she was like, “I don’t think I’m going to make it. I have someone great I can send.” I was like, “You know what? Honestly, I feel okay.” I really do want my mom in the delivery room with me at the hospital. So, really, I was just looking for her to be at the house with me.
I was going to try to get to transition before I got to the hospital. I wanted to go as long as I could at home. It worked out in the end that she was like, “Well, if that’s the case, you just want me at the house. I’ll just come now. And, when my other client needs me, I’ll go from your house.” I was like, “Okay, great.” So, she came in the early morning, sat outside with me. She took a lot of photos and videos, and she was so encouraging and so proud of me, and really proud of my partner. He did every single contraction with me once he woke up. We had done a labor together, yoga workshop. Shout out to Juliet.
Elliot: Oh, Juliet Kurth.
Natalie: Yeah. She’s the best.
Elliot: Silver Lake Yoga.
Natalie: At Silver Lake Yoga. I did all my prenatal yoga there. And then, she did a work job with partners. We had all these labor positions that we knew how to do. Joni was just sort of watching us and cracking up that we had prepped so much for this experience together. He was amazing and super just regulated throughout the entire experience. Just stayed really calm. We were ready to get intense. We were just like, “We know this is going to be intense.” We didn’t know very, very long.
Elliot: What time is it now?
Natalie: Yeah. In the early morning, it was 6:00, 7:00 a.m. when my contractions started to get on top of each other. There was no more breathing in between.
Elliot: This was 12 hours already into your labor or something like that?
Natalie: Yeah, at least. Because I had felt my contractions at 2:30 in the afternoon on Tuesday. This is Wednesday morning at 6:00 or 7:00. I really wanted my doula there just to tell me when it was time to go to the hospital. I just really didn’t trust myself being a first-time mom, but I just knew I would go too early.
And so, she looked at me at some point and I was deep, deep in labor land. Like on another planet, like not a person. She said, “You know I think if we wait any longer, the car ride to the hospital, and the walk-in, and the getting settled is going to be nearly impossible. They’re right on top of each other and long.” They were 90 seconds or more.
Elliot: What time was that happening?
Natalie: This was at 8:30.
Elliot: At 8:30 in the morning. Alright. It sounds like we’re about to enter a new phase of this journey.
Natalie: For sure.
Elliot: Let’s take a little break and we’ll be right back.
[Break]
Elliot: Welcome back. We are talking to Natalie Dreyfuss, and here’s how her labor starts in the afternoon with a whole house full of people. You packed your bag. Try to go to sleep. Only, the other people can sleep. And then, you labor with your mom. Then, your partner wakes up. And then, your doula comes over. By 8:00 something in the morning, your contractions are right on top of each other, and you decide to trek out to the hospital. Had you been in touch with your doctor yet by this point?
Natalie: Yes. My doctor’s an angel from heaven. I am obsessed with her. I actually talked to her the night before just letting her know that I felt like I was in labor, but I was being really patient. I was doing everything I was supposed to do. She called me right away. She was like, “Oh, I had a feeling that she was going to be right on time.” I was like, “There’s no way she’s coming on our due date.”
Elliot: Still, you’re holding that line.
Natalie: Yeah. I was like, “That’s crazy!” She was like, “Yep. We’re doing it.” She was super encouraging.
Elliot: You had only met her a couple of months before, right?
Natalie: Yeah. I had switched late in my pregnancy. I met her when I was maybe 33 weeks, and built a whole relationship with her so beautifully and so quickly. I saw her today, and I just like fell into her arms.
Elliot: [unin]
Natalie: I have the greatest photo of us during this labor. Just like me staring into her eyes. It’s so cute, I said it to her. I was like, “Hey, my love for you is real,” which is very apparent.
Elliot: Yeah. She’s a different kind of OB than typical. She’s more like OB/midwife/BFF sort of hybrid.
Natalie: Yeah. She genuinely cares. It’s crazy. She knew that I had been laboring for a while. She talked to Joni I guess during my contractions. I wasn’t at all conscious of this. But, they had decided together it was time for me to go to the hospital because they didn’t want me to wait too long and not be able to handle the car ride. And so, it’s a little bit far. It was like 30 minutes.
Elliot: Okay. How was the car ride?
Natalie: Honestly, horrific. Like, “Oh, wow! That is morning traffic when you’re in labor is just so frustrating. I was not doing well by the time I was in the car. By the time, I got to the hospital, I’ve really had then started to move into a different feeling of suffering. I felt I was really you know starting to move into a place that didn’t feel healthy for me mentally, physically. I had told myself that if I got to a place like that, I was going to ask for help. Say like I want to have an Epidural, or I want to do whatever other options there are.
Elliot: I remember you said that in the previous interview.
Natalie: Yeah. The truth was what I really wanted out of the experience was to know that I had worked my butt off, and I really did labor like crazy, and did so many hours of contractions. And then, when I got to the hospital I was only about 4 centimeters.
Elliot: You say “only,” because you felt like you were further along?
Natalie: Yeah, for sure. Because my contractions were so intense, so long, so close together. They were right on top of each other. I knew that that could mean more dilation or less dilation. It’s not necessarily an indicator of anything. It can happen quickly, or slowly, or whatever. But, I did feel disappointed when they said that I was only 4 centimeters. and I think I was 90-something percent effaced or whatever. I was in it. But, at that point, I knew I needed to ask for help.
And so, I did. I looked at my mom. She was like, “Anytime you want to get help, I think you should do it. You’ve been working so hard and you also haven’t slept.” Because I hadn’t slept since 7:00 a.m. Tuesday morning.
Elliot: [unin]
Natalie: Yeah. This is now the following morning. At 10:00 or 11:00, I got settled. And then, I think around noon, I said, “Okay. I’m really suffering.” I’m like, “This isn’t good for me, so I want to do an epidural.” They’re like, “Oh, we’re so sorry.”
Elliot: No.
Natalie: Anesthesiologist is in a C-section.
Elliot: All tied up? Oh my goodness.
Natalie: Yeah. And so, my heart just dropped. They were like, “Maybe an hour, maybe two? Hopefully, he can squeeze you in between C-sections.”
Elliot: Holy moly! And, you’re not getting breaks?
Natalie: No. I had been in tears. I was really suffering. I was like, “I need a break. I need a breath. This is really crazy at this point.” I was nervous I wouldn’t have the energy to push after that many hours without sleep. I just needed some sleep. They were like, “Yeah. If you could just hold on.” I was like, “What are the options? Talk to me about options. Tell me what else we got.” They were like, “Well, we could put something in your IV. It’s not really going to help the pain, but you’ll care less.” I was like, “Put it in,” whatever.
Elliot: Also, sometimes, you can sleep on that.
Natalie: Yeah. I did. I was able to sleep. They were right, it didn’t really help with the pain but my brain was tripping balls. It was really weird. They put it in, and then my brain would be like, “Ow! Meatballs!” It was just weird. I was like, “Caterpillars?” I was like, “What’s happening?” I’m just tripping.
Elliot: They gave you Fentanyl?
Natalie: No. It wasn’t Fentanyl. I don’t remember what it was called. It wasn’t a narcotic that I’ve heard of. But, it didn’t take the edge off. It just really made you sleep and made you start to go into such a dream state that you were just like, “And I guess I’m dreaming.” I got maybe 40 minutes of sleep. And then, the adorable sweet anesthesiologist came in and was like, “I’m in between C-sections. I’m going to do this for you.” It was so lovely and caretaking. By that point, I was like, “I don’t care what’s going on. Just help me.”
Elliot: They woke you up to do it?
Natalie: Yeah. They woke me up. I had my doctor right in front of me holding my face, and I had this sweet anesthesiologist. He was kind of holding my head. And then, I had my partner, James, and my mom. Everyone was just holding on to me and so gently supporting me and really concerned about the epidural process. I hadn’t really learned about the process of epidural because I didn’t plan on doing it. I also just didn’t really want to know.
They explained all the things that can kind of maybe not go so well, or if I felt anything bad, I need to say or might I have to try a few times or whatever. It went totally smoothly. I just remember feeling so supported. Everyone in this room was just so caring and so loving. I guess that’s the thing I remember the most about the entire labor experience was, it being challenging but I felt so supported.
And then, the epidural kicked in. I remember another episode that I listened to on your podcast. I believe it was Alicia’s, who I know and love. She was saying that the epidural felt a little bit traumatizing because the just being so out of control and vulnerable, and I had a really similar experience. I was really frustrated. Once I was numb, I was like, “Give me the pain back. I hate this.” I was really angry at the epidural. I hated having cadaver legs and having everyone have to move me and, oh! I was just so frustrated. As a dancer and someone so connected to my body, I was like, “I hate this feeling!” Then it was definitely better than drowning in contractions. I was able to get an hour and 45 minutes of sleep, which was gold. And, before I started pushing and that was amazing.
Elliot: Do you know how many centimeters you were when they gave you the epidural?
Natalie: I don’t remember. But, I remember after I got it, I thought, “Oh, great. My contractions are going to slow down. They’re going to need to do Pitocin.” I had read up on all the reasons to not do an epidural, so I was like, “Here we go.” I actually kept progressing. I remember them saying, “Eight centimeters, 9, 10.” I don’t believe that they gave me Pitocin at that point. But, I was continuing to progress and I was like, “Great! Then I can sleep.” I’m just going to take this time to sleep. I woke up and I kept asking really specific questions. I was like, “What’s the station? Is she dropping? Should I be moving my hips like this? Should I be in this position?” They were like, “Girl, you’re numb. You’re not moving anywhere.” I was like, “But I trained for this.” They’re like, “No.”
So, once I got to the pushing stage, I just felt really frustrated. I was just feeling real out of control, did not like that. Didn’t like being so vulnerable. Having everyone have to do everything for me.
Elliot: You didn’t like not having control of your body?
Natalie: Yeah. I hated that. I just didn’t feel ready to push. My contractions felt they were just too weak. I’d had these big contractions all morning. And then, they just felt teeny. When I was trying to push, and I was like, “Give me one good one and I can do it!” I was like, “Turn the epidural down. I hate it. Give me Pitocin!” But, it’s still like my contractions just were not as big. I asked for Pitocin to amp it up because I wanted to be able to move her. She didn’t handle the Pitocin well at all. Her heart rate started to drop. So, we couldn’t do that and it was just like problem-solving. Like, “Okay, can’t do that. Okay, got to do this, can’t do that; don’t like this. Okay, next. Next.” I was really communicating with the provider and really communicating with the nurses, “Okay. I don’t like this. I need this. I need that.”
I looked over at my mom at some point, and she was just crying. I was like, “Are you okay?” She was like, “I’m just so proud of you for asking for what you need in such a clear way. It’s not your forte.” I was like, “It’s really not. I hate this.” She was like, “You’re doing it though. You were asking for your needs to be met.” I was like, “Yeah, okay.”
But at some point, I looked at my doctor and I was just like, “I can do better.” I was so mad. I was, “I know I could do better than this.” She was like, “Oh, honey. This is so not the case. It’s not about doing better.” I was like, “Okay. So, is this the lesson?” She was like, “I think this is the lesson that you’ve been waiting to see. What’s this baby going to teach you.” It was really that feeling of I had to get out of my own way and just learn to be patient. I was like, “Is it patience? Is that what it is?” She was like, “I think it’s patience.” I just said, “Okay, okay.” Because I wanted to participate and I was ready to use my training, and all this prep that I’d done, and every Instagram account I follow, and every book I’d read. That was just my first experience of parenting is just like, “Oh, cute.” You can’t prepare for the unpreparable.
Elliot: That is a big lesson.
Natalie: Yeah. It was hard. It was really long. She got stuck. I was not able to push her out. I pushed for I think it was 2.5 hours. It was really hard. That part was really scary. And then, it looked like C-section time at some point. My heart just sank. After so many hours of such hard work to end up in a C-section when I could have done this from the beginning. I was just like, “No.”
Elliot: When they said it looked like C-section time, were they suggesting that at that time or you just felt like how long can you push for?
Natalie: Well, it was about protecting her. I wanted to make sure she was safe and make sure she was tolerating being in labor for this long, and me pushing for this long. I knew that I needed bigger contractions to actually get her out, but the Pitocin was harmful for her. Whatever I need to do to have her safely, that’s what I was going to do. But, basically, my doctor was like, “Okay. We have a few options at this point. One of them is a C-section. I don’t think so that’s where we’re going to go with it, but the other is me using a vacuum and helping you out, and you can push and I’ll pull.” I learned enough about feedback and I was like, “Oh, no. I don’t really know what risk, benefit, reward system is with this.” At that point, it was just like this is what we got to do and I have to just trust in my doctor that it’s okay, and it’s going to be safe, and it’s going to be fine. I remember thinking like, “Oh, great. I’m going to tear like crazy.” Because I was pretty sure that people tear a lot with those. I thought I’d heard something like that.
Elliot: Yeah.
Natalie: At this point, I’ve been laboring for so many hours. I was like, “Well, bye vagina. Here we go. Just whatever we got to do, man.”
Elliot: Glad you think about that. Have that talk.
Natalie: Yeah. I was like, “It was nice to know you, but we are no longer friends.” Yeah, we ended up doing the vacuum. We were able to do one big push, one big pull, and get her out. I was shocked at how hard you had to pull. I thought it was going to be kind of pulling. It was like, I saw her hand shaking. It’s hard. You have to pull real hard.
Elliot: But it is designed — you know the vacuum is a suction cup and it’s designed to — it only has a certain amount of pressure that it will pull before it just pops off to protect the baby.
Natalie: Yeah.
Elliot: It’s a lot of guiding also. Trying to guide the baby’s head and shoulders through as you push. Especially if they’re not quite lined up with the runway.
Natalie: Yeah. That’s I guess what happened. When she turned, I think she was just a little bit crooked. I took a break when I was pushing. I’d pushed for maybe 2 hours. And then, my doctor was like, “You need a break. We’re taking a break.” She rolled me on my side. I think at that point, the baby actually turned herself in a better position. Because when I came back into not labor land and my doctor was like, “Your baby ran this show. She is so cool and she knew what she needed to do, and she took control of this.” I was like, “What? Okay.” But, I think that’s what she meant was that during that break, the baby was able to actually adjust herself.
Elliot: [unin]
Natalie: And then, she was able to guide her out.
Elliot: Okay. Then, that well. Congratulations on that part.
Natalie: Yeah. That was amazing.
Elliot: Let’s take a little break. When we come back here and find out what happened immediately after that, and how your golden hour and postpartum are going. We’ll be right back.
[Break]
Elliot: Welcome back to the podcast. We’re talking to Natalie Dreyfuss. Wow! So, you made the call for the vacuum. You parted ways with your vagina, so to speak. And, one push. One big giant push. If they turn down the epidural, did you feel her coming out of you through your body?
Natalie: No. I felt really numb. But, I knew that I wanted to push the way that I wanted to push. I didn’t want to do this bearing down, like purple pushing or whatever it’s called. I wanted to breathe this baby down. I wanted to breathe her out. So, even though I was numb, I had enough body awareness to know that I was doing that. And, even though the nurse might have told me to do one thing, and my partner was telling me to do another thing, or whatever I knew what I wanted to do, they were, “Hold on to your legs.” I was like, “No, I hate that feeling. I want to hold on to these bars.” “No, set me up more.” “No, I need to be able to connect as much as I can feel.” And so, I felt like I did connect to my breath into the way that I was pushing.
It was just such a blur, but it was so much focus. I just remember such focused attention on exactly how I wanted to maneuver, and I moved a lot like an animal. I let myself just undulate, and squirm, and move. I was never sitting still, I was working my ass off. A big part of Britta’s book says that it’s, “Motion is lotion.” The movement is really important. I never stopped moving, even in between contractions or when anyone was telling me to. Eventually, they let me just sort of run the show more because they were like, “You push when you want to push.” They would say like, “Okay, push now and push for this many seconds now.” I was like, “Nope. I’m only going to do that when I feel like it’s the right time.” Eventually, they were like, “Yeah you know you’re right. We’re watching it on the monitors. You are much more connected to it than we could ever be, so go ahead.”
Elliot: There’s a lot of sensors in there. Yeah. But, first of all, 350 episodes of this podcast, and I’m pretty sure that’s the first time anyone said “undulate.” That is a milestone for us.
Natalie: I win some sort of award. I win the undulation award.
Elliot: That’s right. The Golden Undulate. But, in that final push, where you’re pushing the big push and she’s pulling, are you still numb at that point or do you feel the baby moving through?
Natalie: Yeah. I was numb. I had been crowning for a while. Everyone kept saying, “We can see she has hair.”
Elliot: Great. Get out!
Natalie: But, I couldn’t feel that really. I was pretty numb, yeah. My legs were really not mine. It just felt really strange. I did not love the feeling of being so disconnected from my lower half.
Elliot: Did you tear?
Natalie: No. I actually had one tiny stitch.
Elliot: Wow! So, that’s great.
Natalie: Yeah. It was amazing. I really had such minimal damage to any of my parts, all the parts. I really was shocked at how well that went. I mean, mostly that has to do with my doctor being so careful with that stuff, and really making sure that she did as much as she could to help me with that. The biggest thing I’m leaving out right now is just how involved my partner was in this whole process. He was so involved, and so in it. And, that’s such a big part of the experience for me too was just the vulnerability of just having him right there, with the doctor, up in every aspect of me and this process. Just having him so steady, and calm, and excited, and wanting to help, wanting to be a part of everything.
We had spoken about a birth plan. In that birth plan, if it was available for him to pull her out. We had discussed whether I would want to pull her out myself or let him do it, and his eyes just lit up at the idea of being able to pull her out. And so, I just knew that would be really special for him. So, when her head came out, they were like, “Look! Her head’s here. You can see her head.” I was just so focused. I was like, “I don’t care. Keep moving here.” I am in the middle of being a full lion, tiger, an animal right now.
Elliot: Undulating.
Natalie: I’m undulating. Leave me alone. So, when her shoulders came through, I looked at him. I was like, “Go ahead.” My doctor looked at me, she’s like, “Are you sure you don’t want to pull her out?” I looked and I was like, “Nope. This is his thing.” He was so excited. So, he was able to pull her out and put her on my chest, which was so cool.
Elliot: So sweet and special.
Natalie: Yeah. He really was I think prepped really well for the intensity of the moments that were coming, and just was not thrown by any of it, and was such a steady calm force. I wasn’t sure if I would want to be intimate, or touched, or kissed, or have his breath near me, or hug him, or anything during something so challenging. But, every time he was near me, I felt comfort. Every time he came to give me a kiss, or hold me, or he was right there. He never left my side. He was with me every single contraction, breathing with me, doing the exercises with me.
I didn’t do hypno training kind of thing, but I did my own version of that. And, so much of that had to do with us doing it together, which was a nice feeling to not be in it alone. I was waiting to see whether I would hate that. But, I actually felt what a bonding experience the whole labor was just to have someone like me, who’s very independent and tends to be, “I love you. Go away.” I felt really open to the support of him, and I really trusted him to be down there and inspecting everything. He was like, “Okay. So this part of the vagina is doing this, okay. And, here’s what the poop is doing. Okay, great. I wing it. I want it.” He was moving bed stuff. He’s like, “Oh, this needs to be plugged in. I’m going to do that.” The nurses were just laughing. He’s just on it, doing everything.
And, when he lifted her out and put her on me, I just saw him change completely in that moment. I was emotional thinking about it, but he just became a dad that second. His heart just welled up, and we had talked about if I had to have a C-section and they had to take the baby, I couldn’t go with the baby, would I want him to stay with me and be with me, or what I wanted to go and take care of her? We both agreed, “Go! Be with the baby. I’ll be fine.” So, as soon as she came out, he was just such a Papa Tiger. Just like, “This is my child,” and they left her with us for that golden hour.
But, as soon as they went to do any measurements or put her by the warmer or anything, he was right there, just in the way, driving the nurses insane. He was just on her, and kissing her, and touching her, and holding her. He’s like, “What are we doing now? Okay. We turn this light on? Okay, great. Do you want me to measure her? Do you want me to…?” They were like, “Sir, please move away.” He was like, “No. This is my job. No.” Then, I was just kind of sitting back watching that happen. Because my exhaustion level and my connection and everything I knew that would take time for me to really feel like, “My baby.” So, to watch that happen for him was so sweet and special.
Elliot: When did that happen for you?
Natalie: I would say I’m still working on it. Even three weeks later, yeah. I still feel surprised by the amount of time it’s taking me to really feel she’s mine. Because I love kids so much and I love baby so much, I feel connection to all baby, like anyone’s child. I’m like, “I would love this for the rest of my life.” I feel immediate connection to kids in general. So, with my own, I just feel a bit tripped out by it still. It just feels like someone handed me this amazing baby to go play with and I get to play house with it, but it’s not mine. It’s still taking me time to feel that.
He feels the opposite. The second he lifted her out, he felt that, which I think is really special to watch and witness. I’d heard this from other moms, too. So, I did not like judging myself on it. But, I am surprised. I just felt like knowing me, I would feel this intense connection immediately, and it is taking time for me to really build these moments with her and our thing. I am a little bit afraid of when it hits full force because I can only imagine how crazy intense that is. So, maybe there’s a little bit of a protective mechanism happening.
Elliot: How is postpartum going otherwise?
Natalie: Postpartum is — I mean, holy mother of God. It is so intense.
Elliot: No, but really? How do you feel about postpartum?
Natalie: Yeah. Let’s don’t hold back. I knew it would be intense. I thought I prepped for that. I thought I prepped for everything. That’s my main jam. I am going to beat the odds. If I could just learn enough about postpartum, then I get to skip the hard parts.
But, that really hasn’t been the case. I’ve had a really frustrating, and rewarding, and amazing, and horrible three weeks. It’s everything at once. I think the second week was much harder for me than the first week. First week, it was kind of adrenaline-filled. We had so much fun in the hospital. The first couple of nights with her was the best. It was Groundhog Day because it was February 2nd. By the time we had the baby on February 1st at 8:30 at night. But then, by February 2nd, Groundhog Day was just on all the TVs all day, like the movie. This, on repeat. So, we just had this Bill Murray movie on and we ordered sushi, and had this new baby, and we were so adrenaline-filled, and had so much fun in the hospital. I couldn’t wait to get the baby home, and play with her, and get her into her new room, and I was so excited about it.
And, we got home and I fell apart. I was like, “I missed the hospital. I missed the people there. I miss having help.” I missed knowing that there’s options if I run into problems. The house felt really big and scary, and our little room felt so safe in the hospital. I just was completely overwhelmed when I got home, and kind of have been ever since.
Elliot: How do you deal with that?
Natalie: I think I just meet each moment with this problem-solving attitude. I am frustrated by the problems I’m running into. Breastfeeding has been really challenging. I’ve had to ask for help a lot. I’ve had to talk to people that I didn’t feel were super helpful. And then, find people that were helpful. I have to figure out just dressing a newborn is so challenging. I’m like, “Why are newborn clothes like this?” Where I have to torment my child to put these stupid pants on her. I hate all the clothes. Everyone’s like, “Get zippers. It’s great.” I’m like, “Cool. I have all the zippers.” I’m like, “What is this? This is horrible. I can’t get anything on this child. It’s so annoying.” And so, I’m constantly trying to figure out the SNOO, and figure out the sleeping situation, and figure out the clothing, and figuring out feeding, and is it okay to use formula? She has a dairy allergy.
Elliot: It’s so much learning curve.
Natalie: It’s so much.
Elliot: It’s so much learning curve. And, the learning curve is happening while your body’s in flux. Your hormones and emotions are in flux. Your sleep is in flux. It’s a lot. It has all the chemicals for being terrible. All the ingredients for being terrible. Also, sometimes, amazing at the same time.
Natalie: Yeah. The second week for me my hormones dipped, and I really fell apart. I know depression. I was like, “Hey, girl. Good to see you.” I was like, “There you are. I know you.” I have gone through bouts of this before, so I knew it was chemical. I knew to ask for help. I called my doctor. I was like, “Hi. Things got really dark.” She was like, “Great. Let’s get you meds. Let’s help you out.” I tried to do some SSRIS, and got violently ill. Just so sick. For me, I just couldn’t tolerate any sort of serotonin shift. I just had so much nausea, so much diarrhea. I had chills and vomiting, and I was really sick. And so, dehydrated because I couldn’t keep anything down. I still am having a hard time eating. I only took the meds for maybe three days before I started to get got sick.
And then, I couldn’t care for the child. I couldn’t stay up all night anymore because I was so sick. It made me so much more depressed that by the time I stopped taking the meds, I was like, “I’m not depressed anymore.”
Elliot: Mission accomplished!
Natalie: Yeah. I was like, “This was the best antidepressant of all time.” Because it got me so much sicker that I was like, “Oh, I thought it was bad before. This is infinitely worse.” As long as I’m not puking, I am not depressed. I’m great. So, I’ve tried that route, it wasn’t for me. I felt the hormones leveled out a little bit. I’m still having a hard time with eating. Now, I have this crazy diet because she has a horrible dairy allergy. And so, her whole face is crusted over and swollen shut. I was like, “Oh God. I’m accidentally poisoning my baby.”
Elliot: Wait. So, you’re off dairy?
Natalie: I have to cut dairy. It’s the worst. All I want is milk, and yogurt, and cheese. I just want pizza. So, I have to switch my whole diet around and hers as well. I have had to supplement with formula. And then, do goat formula and all that stuff. Like I said, lots of problem-solving here and there. But, I would say the last four days. The clouds of surge part a little bit. As she got really chunky this week, and I love it so much.
Elliot: Oh, the [unin].
Natalie: She’s substantial at this point. She’s a big girl. She gained 14 ounces this week. And so, they’re so squishy. It’s starting to feel different. I’m starting see that they’re not quite like babies yet. The newborn phase is a strange one. It really is that fourth trimester.
Elliot: Yeah. They don’t even realize that their arms and legs are attached. So, when they move by, they startle themselves. It’s just a very unstable — the second they get hungry; they’re screaming their little heads up. Like, survival. Like, “Will I get a meal or will I not?” I think every three weeks to me, there’s a huge change to the next chapter. And, you’re just getting into your first, past your first three weeks. Soon, they will realize their arms and legs are attached, and they realize that when they’re hungry, and make a little noise. They will get something to eat, and then eat over the next three weeks. After that the little interactions, the smiles and the coos, and the tracking it with their eyes, and things like that. And then, just of course, you find your rhythm with this sleeping, with how to get those little pants on without torturing them, and everything else. It starts to fall into place.
Natalie: Yeah, I agree. I can see how it’s starting to change in the past few days. And, it is where everyone does say. I guess I just thought I could be the exception. I had these stealthy expectations as Brené Brown would say, these expectations, you don’t even know are living in you. And, they show up and you’re disappointed somehow that you’re not special. You don’t get to bypass postpartum because you learned enough about it, or because you thought you bought the right things or had the right amount of support, or the right amount of help, or I don’t know. I just thought that I could prep enough, and that just doesn’t exist. That’s the lesson for me. I guess is just that this is what “nailing it” looks like.
Elliot: Well, look. It’s different for everybody. Life is a roller coaster. There are ups and downs. You’re a hard worker and you did put a tremendous amount of work into it. And, who knows what it would have been like if you hadn’t put that kind of work into it. But, flatline is death, not life. There are struggles, you conquer them. There’s victory, then there’s more struggles. There’s dips, there’s valleys and peaks. That’s life. And, with such a big transition, you would expect bigger ups and downs, and they’re happening.
Natalie: Yeah. Yesterday, I was looking through my phone and I’ve just got just enough distance from the labor to look back on the photos and stuff. I got really emotional about it. I was like, “Wow!” I just have enough space from it to really appreciate it. It was cool that I think I was about to text you because I just felt I had just enough space from this to be able to talk about it. I pulled up your name and you texted me. I was like, “Whoa!” I was sitting, next time, I was like, “Look at this.” I literally was about to text him and say, “Hey. I’d love to podcasts while it’s still fresh.” And, you’re like, “Are you ready to podcast?” I was like, “What?” Because we hadn’t spoken since before first one. I was like, “That’s so weird.” Yeah.
Elliot: Well, now, we did it.
Natalie: Yeah. I’m so grateful for this. Because it feels like a cool time capsule. I don’t know what story I’ll tell myself about what happened in the birth, or this first three weeks, or rewrite that history. So, it’s kind of cool that while I’m in it, just to have you give people the opportunity to really vent it out and process it honestly as I’ve told this story. So, I’m processing it as we’re talking about it as well. I just think it’s such a cool thing that you do, and I feel really happy that you included me.
Elliot: Thank you. I’m so honored that you came to join us and to share your excellent storyteller. I mean, it’s part of what you do in life. But also, just to let yourself be so open and just while you’re processing, take us along for the ride. I really appreciate that. What’s next for Natalie Dreyfuss? Do you have projects coming up?
Natalie: Just raising this baby.
Elliot: That’s a big project. That is the role of a lifetime.
Natalie: Yeah. I really feel like this is what I’ve been waiting for always. So, career stuff, it’s just really not on my mind. The next phase is just bringing together families and stuff. My partner’s family is all in Montreal. My family is on the East Coast. So, over the next few months, once I feel it’s safe, I want to introduce the baby to her peeps, and spend time traveling with her, and just really experience being a mom. This is what I’ve always wanted. So, the career part was always a means to an end for me. I was like, let’s make sure that I’ll be able to have what I really dream of having, which is a little baby.
Elliot: Amazing. Congratulations.
Natalie: Yeah. I can’t wait for you to meet her. I’ll come bring her in.
Elliot: I cannot wait to meet her, and I can’t wait to give you some postnatal T.L.C. for you.
Natalie: Yeah.
Elliot: And, to our listeners, thanks for listening, and visit us online at informedpregnancy.com.
Elliot: Welcome to the Informed Pregnancy and Parenting Podcast. I’m your host, pregnancy-focused chiropractor, Dr. Elliot Berlin.
My guest today is a TV actress who has battled endometriosis. She’s now pregnant and expecting her first baby very soon. We’re going to talk about career, endometriosis, pregnancy plans for birth. And, I’m super curious about a condition that she has called aphantasia which has some similarities to my weird prosopagnosia. Stay tuned. Natalie Dreyfuss, welcome to the podcast.
Natalie: Hi! I’m so excited to be here.
Elliot: I’m so excited you’re having contractions.
Natalie: I know. It caught me on a good day.
Elliot: On a crampy day. Amazing. We’re going to get into everything. Well, let’s start at the beginning. Where are you from originally?
Natalie: I am from Los Angeles.
Elliot: Did you leave and come back, or are you still here?
Natalie: I’m still here.
Elliot: You didn’t travel around.
Natalie: No. I’m a rare native.
Elliot: Seriously. First of all, I thought everybody was a transplant. But I have been to the East, the North, the South, Midwest. I like it here best.
Natalie: Yeah. I’m definitely not attached to it. I would be happy to live somewhere else eventually. But it’s interesting to be born in LA and raised in LA. Strange town.
Elliot: And watch everybody [unin]?
Natalie: Yeah. It’s like being out of a city of broken dreams. I was just in it. I was just placed here. I didn’t come here. It’s an interesting place to grow up.
Elliot: You were cast in this dream.
Natalie: Yeah. It’s a little bit of like a lonely city.
Elliot: You act. How did you get into that?
Natalie: I’ve avoided it as long as I could really. When you’re from LA, I think you make that choice pretty early to either stay far away or get into it. I was a ballerina growing up, and then I actually taught preschool for a little while. And then, I missed performing art. So, a friend said, “You should take an acting class. It’s really fun. You love games. It’s a bunch of games.” I was like, “Ugh! No.” But, I did and I ended up really falling in love with it. It was so different for me than ballet was. It was just as unique as you can be. That’s the best way to go.
Elliot: And your feet could be flat on the ground.
Natalie: Yeah. It’s not a torture chamber. Ballet was just like you have to fit this mold and you’re never going to fit it, and acting’s the opposite. I got pretty hooked. It was later in my life. That was 21, 22.
Elliot: That’s how I feel about airline seats.
Natalie: How do you feel about airline seats?
Elliot: It’s like you have to fit this mold and you’re never going to fit it.
Natalie: Right. That is ballet.
Elliot: So much in common. Did you start ballet a little, little?
Natalie: I did, yeah. I was in ice skating first. I was probably 5. And then, into ballet.
Elliot: Ice skating.
Natalie: Yeah. I chose all these strange solo sports.
Elliot: Especially, from Los Angeles. It doesn’t seem so native.
Natalie: Yeah. But, I was oddly graceful as a kid. I would win the competitions and stuff, and found myself in dance. I think about now, I’m like, “What a weird kid.” I just had this longing and grace for a 5-year-old, 7-year-old. I was like, “What is that?” Just falling in love with classical music and just this bittersweetness of this child, I don’t know. It’s so interesting to think about as an adult, but I got really far in that career and took it too seriously. And then, once I was injured, I danced on that injury for a long time. Eventually, it was, “Okay. No one’s happy here. I got to get out of here.” But, I had dedicated–
Elliot: [unin]
Natalie: Yeah. I dedicated so much of myself to ballet that I had no real education. I dropped out of everything. And so, I just always loved babies. I went to a preschool, walked in, and was, “I’m great at this. Can I just be here for a couple years?” They were like, “No. That’s not how this works.” But, they let me be a TA for a while and I started hanging out with the kids. I feel they really saved me.
Elliot: It’s probably mutual.
Natalie: Yeah. I hope so. I hope those kids remember me. I’ve just always been sure about wanting kids and feeling like that was what I was meant to do.
Elliot: First of all, do you watch ballet, or do you appreciate other people doing ballet, or you enjoyed doing it yourself?
Natalie: It’s pretty painful, honestly. Because it was just such a traumatic life and there was so much that went into that. Really, I couldn’t get back into a ballet class as an adult. I couldn’t really enjoy it anymore. So, watching it is kind of like, “Oh, it hurts a little bit.” But, I’ve got to do some ballet on my series that I work on. Once I found out that I could do it, they kind of wrote it into my character. So, that was the first time that those two worlds had collided, which is really cool.
Elliot: Yeah. My ice skating world collided with a lot of people.
Natalie: Oh, I bet.
Elliot: I did not have fun memories of ice skating. Okay. So, you take an acting class. So, curious what kind of games. Was there anyone that sticks out in your head that was like, “That was a fun game,” or a purposeful exercise?
Natalie: In acting class?
Elliot: Yeah.
Natalie: Oh, my gosh! There’s so many. I still, to this day, get so addicted to games like catchphrases or code names. Where you’re on a team, when you’re working together, and you get to play in each other’s mind. You’re like, “Oh, I bet this person thinks like that. I’m going to preemptively decide how to get them to say what I want them to say or affect them in a certain way.” There was a lot of games like that in acting class.
Elliot: Hmm. Sounds like you could be on “Survivor.”
Natalie: It just felt so fun. I don’t know physically, but mentally.
Elliot: Mentally. There should be “Mental Survivor.”
Natalie: I don’t know that you or I are equipped for that, but try.
Elliot: I don’t know, but I’m definitely not equipped for the other “Survivor.”
Natalie: Me either.
Elliot: From those classes, how did you get your start and build your way up?
Natalie: Because I was born here and born around this business, I just had a good attitude about it. I didn’t really want anything from it. I didn’t crave fame, or success, or any of that. Auditioning, it just put me in a good position where I really was, “I’m good at this, so take it or leave it.” I came in with a lot of confidence because there wasn’t a lot to lose for me. I really just knew I wanted to be a mom, and that this was kind of a way to make money to do that, and I enjoy it. I enjoy it for reasons that are probably different than other actresses.
Elliot: Ooh, do tell.
Natalie: I like the teamwork part. I like being on a set, and being a really great teammate. Where I fall on the team, I don’t care that much. If it’s in front of the camera or not, or directing, or whatever it is, I just like to be a really great cog in the mechanism of making something with a bunch of people. I like to bring a lot of really positive, really grateful happy energy to a set because all sets could use it. So, anyone that’s worked with me knows me as the girl that is happy to be there.
Elliot: The positive one.
Natalie: Appreciative. It’s like, “Oh, good. The girl that likes to be here is coming today. Great!”
Elliot: I was happy around craft services. But outside of that — I was a theater major. Anytime we had a production, I loved two things about it. One is that puzzle piece. You’re a piece of a puzzle. You’re a piece of an orchestra. One musician has a bad note, one instrument goes south, the whole well-tuned orchestra sounds funky. And then, also the live audience, their response. The interplay with the live audience was, for me, that was almost therapeutic. Having that instant gratification.
Natalie: Yeah, me too. I fell in love with multicamera comedies, because they’re live audience. And so, it was the best of both worlds.
Elliot: Oh, yes.
Natalie: Television, but live. It was so fun. That was always my dream was to continue on that path. I mean, after COVID, we’ll see what that looks like. But, that’s where I really shine.
Elliot: That’s a win-win. I didn’t even think about that.
Natalie: Oh, it’s so fun. It’s the best schedule, too. It’s such a fun schedule because you’re rehearsing all week, and then you shoot on Fridays. It’s just like a big play every Friday. And then, you drink and have fun afterwards, and then do it all again on Monday. It’s a good time.
Elliot: You’re selling it well, I’m going to say that, Natalie. Okay. So, you’ve always wanted to have kids. Now, it sounds like your wish is coming true here in the not-too-distant future. Where’s your partner from? How did you guys meet?
Natalie: I found a lovely Canadian man. Yeah, I love Canadians. We met 10 or 12 years ago, and then we started dating six years ago. On our first date, we went and had a drink together. I knew he was a writer. He sat down and started telling me how much he wanted kids, and how much family meant to him, and how this business doesn’t really mean anything to him. I just did not buy any of it. I was like, “You’re such a writer. Who told you my story? Are you selling me right now?” I did not buy it. He’s handsome and sweet, and Canadian. I was like, “What is going on? Who is this? This is going to be a problem.” And so, I brought in reinforcements. I was like, “Guys, come meet this guy. This makes no sense. I think he’s lying about everything.” Or he’s the perfect person, I don’t know.
Elliot: To find mine.
Natalie: Yeah. It was really scary. I have dated in LA for too many years to fall for this. We laugh about it all the time. Because, now, we’re having this little baby girl and we talk about that date a lot, and how much we spoke about this on that day.
Elliot: On your first date?
Natalie: Yeah. It was our first date. We talked so much about having babies together. Not necessarily together, but what it meant for each of us.
Elliot: That you each wanted to have children.
Natalie: Yeah. That it was number one. In LA, you don’t really hear that. Everyone looks at me like I have two heads because I care more about having a family than a career. But, I get in other parts of the world that’s not crazy, but Los Angeles it is. So, I just couldn’t believe I’d met a man who felt this way. Every other guy I dated had said a lot of stuff like, “Yeah, yeah. One day, I’ll totally want that.” I’m like, “Okay. Well, you’re 45. So, let me know when you are ready.” I think it was really meant to be that I ended up with this person that cares so much about this. The pregnancy has been so fun because he’s made it so fun.
Elliot: I have to meet him. He’s sweet.
Natalie: Yeah. He’s a really classically Canadian nice person.
Elliot: I can’t stop saying, but does he say “aye”?
Natalie: Oh, yeah. I say it now. Well, he’s French Candian. But he doesn’t say, “a boot.” But he does say, we both go, “Oh, that’s crazy!”
Elliot: Alright. So then, since six years ago, you had this conversation about having kids. Did you plan when you were going to have kids?
Natalie: Yeah. We actually went through a breakup right before the pandemic, which I didn’t think we would make it back from. And, 2020, man! It just changed me, changed all of us. My life really just took a weird turn for the last couple of years. It was super, super challenging. We broke up in November of 2019. By the time March came around, nothing really dramatic happened between us. It was just a decision. And then, we both were like, “So, we’re going to be there for each other, right?”
During this, we live five minutes away from each other. We’re not going to not take care of each other. So, we spent a lot of time together in the pandemic just making sure we were in a bubble. Who do you want to watch movies with? It’s the person you’ve been watching movies with for three years and feel comfortable with. I really feel like it brought us to a different place in our relationship. But, I was traveling a lot because I was shooting in Canada. I did five 14-day quarantines. So, I did two and a half months in a room by myself.
Elliot: Per exposure?
Natalie: Yeah. Because every time you go to Canada, you have to quarantine 14 days.
Elliot: You have to quarantine? Oh, wow!
Natalie: In a hotel room. You can’t open the windows, can’t open the door. They leave food at your doorstep and walk away. Mentally, it really broke me. It actually broke me.
Elliot: Fourteen days is a long time.
Natalie: Yeah. I know. And five of them? It was intense. And so, I really felt like I needed comfort so much when I was home and I was scared of everybody. I had this autoimmune disease. I took it really seriously. I was also working, and so grateful to be working. So, I was completely isolated. He agreed to really isolate with me. We took it very, very seriously. It really brought us together, and put us on this new path towards eventually having this conversation of, “Are we ready to try and have a baby?” We had that conversation, and this little miracle showed up.
Elliot: I love the silver linings.
Natalie: Yeah. It was a crazy path, honestly. I listened to your podcast so much. Seems you took my phone and saved a bunch of episodes. I got super addicted to this podcast. I just loved it. I started listening to a bunch of my friends have been on it. It’s a small town. I just kept thinking, I’m like, “Wow! What is my story? When he asks me, ‘How did I get here?'” I just started thinking about the last couple of years, and this path to this baby, and wow! It was interesting to think about what I was going to say when you asked me. I haven’t really reflected on it too much because it’s all happening so quickly.
Elliot: Oh, I love it in real-time.
Natalie: Yeah. It happened definitely in real-time. Just hearing other people’s stories and their paths to pregnancy, and what this has been so far even before this baby gets here. How much it’s changed everything. I’ve done a lot of reflecting in the last couple of days.
Elliot: I’m glad I can help.
Natalie: Thanks.
Elliot: What were you shooting in Canada?
Natalie: I work on a show called, “The Flash.”
Elliot: Barry Allen.
Natalie: Barry Allen.
Elliot: It’s all my 12-year-old talks about.
Natalie: That’s so sweet.
Elliot: Barry Allen. Barry Allen. He got everybody in our family to watch “The Flash.” Not just an episode. He would sit down even for the ninth time of Season 1, Episode 1 with a family member who’s visiting from another town, and be like, “You got to watch Flash with me.” Watch all those episodes all over again until they were all caught up.
Natalie: That’s awesome.
Elliot: So, at least, something came out of your five 14-day quarantines.
Natalie: Yeah. I really worked hard for this job.
Elliot: He appreciates you.
Natalie: Yeah. It was a really great experience. They’re done now. I wasn’t able to make it for the final season, but I am so super grateful for all the time I got to spend with them. It’s a great show to be on.
Elliot: I hope somebody else was the cheerful person after you left.
Natalie: I know. They know me as the person that loves to be there.
Elliot: Alright. Now, let’s take a break. When we come back, we’re going to find out about your pregnancy. We’ll be right back.
[Break]
Elliot: Welcome back. We are talking to Natalie Dreyfuss. Very pregnant. Beyond 37 weeks. So, in the zone. Could happen any minute. Well, let’s start at the beginning. You have endometriosis. When did you find out about that?
Natalie: I’ve always had a really tough GI system, and it’s been called lots of things over the years. But, I have struggled a lot of autoimmune stuff and been to a million different doctors and specialists. It was a weird one because it’s invisible and very hard to diagnose. It took a long time to get a formal diagnosis. And, really the only way to do that is to open you up in the core.
And so, my plan was always to wait until six months before I was going to try to get pregnant before I did that surgery. I ended up not having to do that. I was able to get pregnant and much, much faster than I thought I would be able to. We tried once and she showed up. I could not believe that. My whole life, I just thought this is going to be a huge long journey for me and I was really prepped for that, and that is not what happened. I feel like, “Oh my God!” Miracles showed up. That’s so crazy.
Elliot: What were your endometrial symptoms like?
Natalie: Really severe chronic pain, daily pain. Not just like menstrual pain. There’s two days a month where I really can’t move during my cycle. I have what I believe to be endo on my colon. And so, it causes extreme motility, and spasms, and cramping. Really fun symptoms every day. It kind of mirrors stuff like Crohn’s, and colon cancers, and stuff, but I’ve been scoped for all that stuff a million times. The only difference is it’s every day. There’s not flare-ups. I’ve been on a lot of medications and I’ve tried a million different healing modalities.
Eventually, in the last couple years, I took a real left turn and started doing some somatic stuff and trauma stuff, and finally started looking into that. I do feel like there was some really beautiful stuff that came out of that.
I’ve gotten to live the last nine months with no endo. It is the best I can eat whatever I want. No pain. It’s the coolest experience to just have a normal life for a couple nine months.
Elliot: Your pregnancy is helping with the symptoms.
Natalie: Yeah. It’s amazing.
Elliot: Maybe this is why you didn’t realize but, internally, you always wanted to have a lot of babies.
Natalie: I think there’s probably many reasons, but that’s definitely one.
Elliot: Contributing factor.
Natalie: Yeah. Being able to eat is a real bonus.
Elliot: I mean, I’m really glad that you — I guess, the opposite of the typical reputation that pregnancy gets is making you achy and uncomfortable. For you, it’s the opposite.
Natalie: Yeah. I think I didn’t realize what my life would be without endo. And so, being able to experience it for the past nine months has just been so transformative.
Elliot: Would surgery be at all corrector for you?
Natalie: The surgeries are tough. You can remove. It does grow back. It’s abdominal surgery, which takes quite a while to recover from. I was playing a superhero on TV, like in a tight suit. There wasn’t a lot of abdominal surgery time to recover. And then, after it grows back, it’s only a few months of relief.
They say that pregnancy can have lasting positive effects, and it’s different for every person. There’s just not enough information about it. Basically, I just want to be pregnant forever.
Elliot: Are there certain things — I mean, now, you’re at the very end. But, highlights about the pregnancy about things that you felt and things that your body has done or changes that took place that are highlights for you either on the ups or down highlights?
Natalie: Yeah. I made this decision that getting pregnant and staying pregnant was going to be a huge challenge in my life, and I braced for this huge challenge for years and years. And, to make this decision to try and to have this happen on my first try and come so easily and come so quickly and stay with me and make it past that 12-week mark, I just feel like miracles happen. You just don’t know what you’re bracing for. I was so convinced that I was on this really tough path and I’m trying to really keep that with me before this labor and before being a parent is just like you don’t know. You don’t know what’s coming and you don’t know what to be bracing for and you can’t predict how good things can just show up for you.
Elliot: It’s really sweet to hear. Maybe a reward from the universe for all your positivity on set.
Natalie: I do bring a lot of positivity. I’m like, “Guys! There’s free food here. What are you so mad about? Let’s have a good day.”
Elliot: I could see it not being as boring with your energy there. Okay. What kind of things have you been doing to take care of yourself mind, body otherwise during your pregnancy?
Natalie: I’ve met a really amazing group of people. Yourself included. In this world of birth and labor, and all these practitioners, it’s such a cool world. I got to you through Britta Bushnell, who’s been such an amazing little angel throughout my pregnancy journey.
Elliot: “Transformed by Birth.”
Natalie: Yeah. I love her book so much. I got really overwhelmed at the very beginning of my pregnancy with how much information. I just had never really researched pregnancy and birth. I was like, “Oh my God! Where do I start?” Someone in a mommy group said, “You should read Britta’s book. I think it’s really a nice middle ground of making you feel like you’re not going to set yourself up to be disappointed or fail in some way, if like there’s a certain way you get attached to wanting to do this.”
I think, to take care of myself mentally and spiritually, I have really followed that path and really wanted to just give myself the opportunity to be transformed by this birth, and meet some incredible people on the way through chiropractic like you, or pelvic floor therapy, or my incredible doctor, and I have to become birth obsessed. It’s a rabbit hole. You get sucked in. And then, I’ve been listening to your podcasts and stuff. It’s just so fun. I feel it’s going to be such a big part of my life forever now.
Elliot: Well, I think you attract things from the universe. It happens to be in Los Angeles where pretty tight-knit — I feel like we’re pretty tight-knit in the birth community. I just feel super blessed to work with colleagues that are so good at what they do and so dedicated to what they do, and so into the process, and then make a living at it versus how can I milk some money out of it. Britta has been on the podcast a couple of times and her episodes are so popular. Even people who had never met her. Just the pearls of wisdom that she has from her depth of background in so many different areas. And then, your OB is also a friend of mine. She’s wonderful. How did you guys connect?
Natalie: I was actually with a different OB and I had a pretty scary experience, and I just felt really dropped. I felt like I’ve been through a lot of medical trauma stuff. I really followed my instincts and was like, “You know what? I know I’m 32 weeks into this, but this just isn’t the right place for me. I need to find something else.” And, it’s hard to find someone at 32 weeks. Nobody wants to start seeing you.
So, I called everyone I knew and I asked Britta for help to find a new OB. When I met Dr. Perlow, I just knew right away that this was going to not only change my birth experience but also my endo experience. She’s an incredible woman that cares so much about women’s care, and she taught me a lot about advocating for myself. She was really proud of me for leaving and being ballsy about it, and just knowing that that wasn’t the right doctor for me. I’m standing up for myself. I got pretty mad at this. I definitely stood up for myself, and was like, “This isn’t okay. You can’t treat people like this,” and walked away. So happy it was like this weirdly dramatic experience, but it brought me to this incredible woman. I just feel like she’s going to be in my life forever.
Elliot: I feel like if ever you had to switch at 32 weeks, Dr. Perlow’s amazing to switch to. Because she’s so available and spends so much time with you. Anyway, that it’s not like you’re only going to spend five minutes a week with her.
Natalie: I know. She’s taking care of me like I’ve never felt in my life.
Elliot: When I met you, your baby was not head down.
Natalie: She was breeched.
Elliot: She was breech. When did you find out about the breech?
Natalie: I was breech at 34 weeks. It turned out that’s why I was having pre-term labor contractions. And, when I got to Dr. Perlow, she knew right away. She was like, “Your baby’s breech.” Why didn’t they catch this? And so, basically, she took it really seriously right away and wanted me to do all the Spinning Baby stuff, and come see you. I took it really seriously and was trying everything I could to help her turn. And then, seeing you, I was so grateful because you really put my mind at ease that she was going to do it. They were like, “I believe she’s going to do it.” I was like, “Oh, I hope she does.” And then, I saw you one time and she turned the next day.
Elliot: Oh, that’s amazing! I would never say that if I didn’t think it was true, but just all the different factors that you had going on in your particular case really seemed like she was going to end up head down. I’m really glad for you that she’s in your back on track.
Natalie: Yeah. It’s also just changed my back problems so much. I didn’t realize how hard it was to carry her around when she was breech. It’s hard now for different reasons.
Elliot: The pressure is someplace else.
Natalie: Exactly.
Elliot: Okay. Let’s take a little break. When we come back, we’ll talk about your intentions for birth, but also this crazy thing called aphantasia. We’ll be right back.
[Break]
Elliot: Welcome back to the Informed Pregnancy Podcast. We are talking to Natalie Dreyfuss. Okay. You’re going to have your baby in a minute. But, right before you do that, let’s talk about this. We’re having a conversation and I don’t even know exactly how it came up. You’re like, “Oh, I have aphantasia.” I’m like, “What is that?” And, you tell me what it is, and I thought I was weird because I have prosopagnosia, which means I’m face blind. I can never picture somebody’s face in my mind. I can’t describe it. Every time I see a face, it’s a new one every time. And then, you tell me, “Oh! Well, this is what aphantasia is.” What’s aphantasia?
Natalie: Aphantasia is a blind mind’s eye. It’s the inability to conjure images.
Elliot: Right. First of all, how did you even realize you have it? Because who knows that you’re not seeing things the way other people are when they close their eyes and try to imagine.
Natalie: Yeah. It definitely is something I had no idea. I was living this totally unique human experience until I think two years ago. I saw it on social media. It was going around like a test. It was a really simple test. It just said, “Picture a purple apple.” And then, it started asking you questions about what you were seeing. Whether it was the shade of it, or if there’s light hitting it. I was like, “What are you talking about?” I’ve never seen a purple apple. I know purple and I know apple, but I can’t bring up an image of those things and then describe it to you. I’m like, “What are you talking about?” And, they showed a graph of things you might see and there’s a huge spectrum, and mine is an abyss. I see black. I see nothing.
So, I started to look into what this meant. I was like, “I really think that this makes a lot of sense for who I am.” So many parts of my life start to fall into place. It’s such a weird thing because it really is a unique human experience. You had mentioned to me. You were like, “Yeah. I have face blindness.” I was, “I have mind’s eye blindness. I love weird neurological things. Let’s talk about it.” It’s so fascinating.
Elliot: Yes. Must be serious at some point. We must do a series on this. Here’s what’s crazy though. You told me about it, and I was so fascinated. Because I’ve spent the past — now, it’s about 10 years since I know about my face blindness. Just telling people about it, and they’re always like, “Oh, tell me more. It’s so fascinating and curious.” I’ve seen people diagnosed after having a conversation with them because they had no idea what it was and they said same face blindness is about 1.5%. So, 1.5 out of every 100 people might have it. It’s also a spectrum. Aphantasia seems actually a little bit more common, more like 4 or 5%.
I was just so fascinated. I went home. I was sitting by my computer, and I was reading all about it. It was like, “Picture a rainbow,” and I closed my eyes and I’m like, “Okay.” All these other things, I was like, “Yeah. I can do that.” And then, I was like, “Wait a second. Can I do that?” I didn’t realize until I had to hold up a bottle of Aquafina in front of my face, look at it, see it, and then close my eyes and try to visualize it. I realized I have the abyss. I just have like a black screen with little shades of lighter darkness moving around, but I don’t see that bottle at all. I can describe it. I can tell you the label, roughly how much of the bottle the label takes up the shades of the color on there. But, it’s a logical description. It’s not a visual description. I’m not describing what I’m seeing. I’m describing what I know the bottle to be.
And now, I’ve taken a bunch of people — literally, since meeting you and you’re telling me that, I’ve taken at least 100 people. I’m like, “Close your eyes. Picture a rainbow. Can you see the rainbow? Do you see the colors? What’s the second color down? Can you turn the rainbow upside down? Now, it’s on its back. What’s the second color down now from the top?” And, some people just see it. You can tell in living color, like the highest 4K, whatever. They can see everything. You could ask them to pivot three degrees to the right, and they can tell you what that looks like. Some people grasp with it. Some people see real rainbows. Some people see cartoon rainbow. But then, I do your test, about the purple apple, and then you can really tell. People like, “Wait a second. I’m not seeing the apple.” And just describing the apple, it’s really interesting. The diagnosis only came around like 10 years ago or something like that.
Natalie: There’s not a lot of research about it. But, they have some really interesting TED Talks about it. It does go hand in hand with face blindness quite often, which is why I thought of it when you said that. I was like, “Oh, I have this thing.” And, sometimes, it goes hand in hand with face blindness. I don’t have face blindness, but I couldn’t describe my mother’s face too. Like, I know it. I know that she has blue eyes and white hair, and I could describe her to you. But, it’s not because I’m conjuring the image of my mom. And then, just looking at it and describing that image to you.
Elliot: You’re dealing with your mom what I do with the Aquafina bottle.
Natalie: Yeah. I mean, that was one of the tests I found online. It was, “Picture someone’s face that you should know inside and out,” like have no problem bringing up an image of because you stare at it all the time. And then, they ask you like, “Which direction is it facing?” It just gets me every time because I’m like, “No direction, what?”
Elliot: Yeah. It’s weird. It’s right there, it’s just–
Natalie: I don’t know. It’s just there. I’m like, people have Netflix in their heads. They go to sleep at night, they close their eyes, and they have Netflix in their head. I’m so jealous. I’m so mad that I see an abyss.
Elliot: You’re a dreamer.
Natalie: I do dream. It’s interesting. Because your mind is hungry for images. So, when you dream, you do see a bunch of images. It’s just in your waking life, when you’re trying to conjure an image, you’re not able to do that. It’s really weird and it affects me, specifically in really specific ways that I always just felt a lot of shame around. I was telling you I get lost all the time, I don’t have a mental map. Because I can’t picture the route home until it’s there. I’m driving up to it, I’m like, “Is it left?” Just weird stuff like that. I’m a very on-it, responsible girl. So, it’s weird to me that I’m lost all the time, or that I can’t seem to ever stay organized when I really want to. But a drawer is my nemesis. I close a drawer and it’s like, “Well, who knows what’s in there until we open it again.”
Elliot: You can’t picture what’s in the drawer?
Natalie: Right? You have to kind of memorize–
Elliot: How it’s laid out?
Natalie: Yeah. Things like labels are such a relief. Like, “Ah, put a label on it.”
Elliot: There’s some kind of agnosia there for you, too. Topographical agnosia. Like, Oliver [unin]. He didn’t have GPS, so he could never figure out how to get home unless he took the same exact route every single time.
Natalie: Oh, yeah. I definitely have some of that. What’s weird is that I told my mom this and she was like, “This makes a lot of sense about you.” And she also said, “What did you think directors were doing?” You’ve been in this business for a long time, “What did you think directors were doing?” I was like, “I genuinely thought they were just getting a bunch of people together that are good at their department, and then saying I basically want something like this. And then, just seeing what happens.” She was like, “What? No, they see it in their heads and they get people that are good at that thing, and they put them together so they can have these images come to life.” I’m like, “What?!” That’s insane. Because to me, I was just like, “Oh, get someone that’s great at lighting. And then, explain to them what you want the feel of the film to be. And then, see what they do.”
Elliot: Wow! We launched this platform, Informed Pregnancy Plus, with video and films and content also in the same demographic as our podcast. But, one of the things I’m putting together is a library of guided imagery meditation. Even though it’s a video platform, I was really just going to have obscure shapes on there. Just things that if you’re watching on TV, that’ll just help your mind zoom out. But, after our aphantasia conversations and discoveries, I’m actually doing it differently. I’m going to put in things like when I’m trying to have you visualize things. I’m going to try to have those things on the screen at that moment. So that if you’re not able to, if there is no mind’s eye, you can open up your eyes and be brought to that place is my hope.
Natalie: Yeah, that’s great. I have that on Headspace. The meditation app will show you cartoons of different, really big concepts that they simplify and kind of make cartoons out of. It always is just such a great way for me to understand a concept that’s complicated is just to see it played out in front of me because that’s not something that I’m able to do.
Elliot: Yeah. I don’t dream. Once in a blue moon, I’ll have a dream. But, all I’ll remember about the dream is there were no faces.
Natalie: Right.
Elliot: So, I don’t even know who the dream was about.
Natalie: Yeah. I definitely don’t have faces in my dreams either.
Elliot: That’s weird. I don’t know.
Natalie: Sometimes, I see colors.
Elliot: You see colors in your dreams.
Natalie: For sure, I see colors. Because I will remember them when I wake up. I’m like, “Oh, yeah. That was a colorful dream.” I know I see something. It’s an interesting thing to be an actress from this perspective because I feel like it really helps me be better at my job. Because I’m not like married to some image of what I’m supposed to be doing, or how I see the scripts playing out. So, when I get to set, I’m so malleable. Because you know if you explain to me basically what you want, I’m like, “Okay, great. I’ll show you that in a million different ways and you can choose your favorite.”
Elliot: And never the same way twice.
Natalie: Yeah. And, I’m not going to be mad if it’s different from what’s in my head, which is very difficult for a lot of actors to let go.
Elliot: Yeah. [unin]
Natalie: I’m hoping it helps with my birth as well, is that I don’t have this image of how it’s supposed to go.
Elliot: I actually find, as a doula, that being a doula for actors, experienced actors, is unique happening in itself. Because you take direction really well. Especially also, you have had such intense pain in your life, physical pain. I don’t know, I think those two could actually work in your favor. And, with the direction, it’s sort of like the Britta’s stuff where if your conscious mind is starting to go in one direction, somebody who you trust around you could potentially help you fairly easily move to a different take, a different perspective on what’s happening in that moment. I just find even with coaching and breathing, if that’s what somebody wants when I’m out of birth, that actors take it really well. You’re great with direction. Hopefully, that will serve you. I’m glad you brought that up. Because that’s our last little thing to talk about right here before you go have your baby. What are your intentions for birth?
Natalie: Like you said, Britta’s book has really shaped my intentions. I love that she talks about making pregnancy, and birth, and labor, and new parenthood a real meaning-making experience. She talks a lot about rites of passage. I had to make all these decisions. I got pregnant, and that’s like, “Okay. You have to make all these decisions. Where do you want to give birth and how do you want to do it? Do you want to do drugs? Do you want to do this? Do you…?” I’m like, “I don’t know. I don’t know anything about this stuff.”
And so, you fall down all this information rabbit hole, and then your Instagram figures out that you’re pregnant and starts showing you a million different things. Suddenly, I’m inundated with information. I’m like, “Oh, my God! Okay. If I just have enough information and the right information, then I can really nail this, to have this incredible experience with my birth.” And, when I finally found her book, I was like, “Okay. This is all about letting go of having these goals, and these really rigid ideas of what you want to do, and how you want it to go, and really like allowing this experience to be wild and unpredictable. That being a meaning-making experience and a rite of passage is just letting go of an idea of like, “This is what it has to be,” and just being open to this unknown and this incredibly uncomfortable feeling of just having such mystery of I have no idea what’s about to happen, and I don’t know what it’s like to have a child, and I don’t know what it’s going to be like, and what it’s going to feel like, and how much it’s going to hurt, and I don’t know if I’m doing it right. And, having that be the meaning-making experience is just allowing this uncertainty.
I wrote down a lot of intentions that she helped me shape and stuff. My intentions are stuff like, “I want to labor strongly with focus and attention to what is needed in the moment. I want to ask for help when I need it. I want to be tender with myself when I hit a moment that I wasn’t expecting or surprises me in a way I don’t like or I intend to be connected to this love that’s around me and the support that’s around me. I have a great team. Just to allow that in and just a lot of permission, give myself permission to feel like an animal. Giving myself permission to be impolite or anti-social, if that feels right. Or practice receiving help, which is not my strong suit. So, just really, to the best of my ability, receiving some help when I need it or refusing it when I don’t. And, just see what happens. I just want to meet each moment for exactly what it is. I intend to be at home for as long as I can. I hope to make it to 7 or 8 centimeters. I see the physiological benefit of getting that labor train going.
And, if I can do it with as much presence as possible and not numbing out physically, I’d like to do that. But, if it feels like I’m — I think you said this on one of the episodes I listened to. But, you said something like, “Being in pain and suffering are two different things.” That really stuck with me. I wrote that on my board and stuff that the pain is not going to deter me, but I don’t want to suffer. And, if I’m suffering, I’m going to ask for help.
Elliot: Yeah. I think I found some Penny [unin]. There’s a difference between pain and suffering. Pain is “ouch,” and suffering is a negative emotional response to “ouch.”
Natalie: Yeah. I don’t want to be putting myself through trauma, for the sake of proving something to myself or just getting through and being tough. That’s very much who I am. I was raised in ballet, of course. I deal with a lot of pain in my life. So, I was really like, “Oh, my God! I could be so transformed with how I deal with pain if I could prove to myself. You could do anything.” I just let a lot of that go. I think being tender with myself is much more challenging, allowing other people to be there for me and receiving help, that’s really challenging. I’m just going to try to do less. I’m just not effort so much and just allow, which I think is going to be mentally difficult for me. Because I’m like, “What do I do? Okay. I got it. Just tell me what to do. Give me directions. I love directions.”
Elliot: I will say that those birth intentions sound beautiful and practical, and they make sense for you.
Natalie: Yeah. I just want to meet each moment with what it’s going to be and not get married to some idea, which helps that I don’t have images because I have no idea what’s coming.
Elliot: Well, the image that comes to my logical mind at this moment is kind of like a hot air balloon. You’re taking up on this beautiful flight. And, if you’re very rigid about the direction you’re taking exactly where you’re going to land, you’re going to have a bad trip. But, roughly, where you’re taking off and roughly where you’re landing and you let the journey reveal itself.
Natalie: Yeah. It doesn’t sound like you have aphantasia because that was really cool image.
Elliot: Thanks. It’s only because over the summer, I did my first hot air balloon. I was like, “Don’t we want to be going that way?” They’re like, “We’ll get back there.” And then, we landed in the parking lot of a fast-food restaurant. It was practical.
Natalie: So, all roads lead to something delicious.
Elliot: Yeah. Red Lobster, was it something like that?
Natalie: That sounds great.
Elliot: Well, I’m so grateful for you for coming on and sharing. And, just grateful to even know you and work with you. I think you’re fantastic. I have learned so much from you, even about myself. And for that, I’ll always be grateful. I’m excited to hear how your journey goes, how your flight goes. And maybe, you’ll land at a Wendy’s, who knows?
Natalie: One can only hope.
Elliot: Now, only in the meantime, where can we find you online?
Natalie: You can find me on Instagram, @nataliedreyfuss.
Elliot: How did you come up with that?
Natalie: I don’t know. I’m so creative.
Elliot: It’s really kind of phenomenal that it was available.
Natalie: I imagined it.
Elliot: Finally! @nataliedreyfuss on Instagram. We’re @doctorberlin, D-O-C-T-O-R-B-E-R-L-I-N. At home, thanks for listening to our podcast. If you’re curious and you want to check it out, and you want to see the all-new Informed Pregnancy Plus, I would head over to informpregnancy.tv. That’s informedpregnancy.tv.
