Kristin Mundy is a doula and childbirth specialist with a focus on birth after loss. She’s the host of the Rainbow Connection, a podcast for mothers who have experienced. This episode discusses topics that may be uncomfortable for some listeners, including pregnancy loss, miscarriage, stillbirth, infant loss. Please listen with care.
Informed Pregnancy Media and Mahmee present an all new podcast! One Way or a Mother is a new narrative podcast from Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC. Each season is an intimate story of one woman, one pregnancy, and all of the preparations, emotions, and personal history leading up to the birth. Episodes feature the expectant mother along with her family, doctors, and birth work team.
AI-generated transcript with speaker labels — may contain errors, especially names and medical terms. Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC appears in blue; Kristin Mundy in orange.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:00] My guest today is a doula and childbirth specialist with a focus on birth after loss. She's the host of The Rainbow Connection, a podcast for mothers who have experienced loss. This episode includes discussion of pregnancy loss, including miscarriage, stillbirth, and infant loss. We share openly and with sensitivity, but if it feels overwhelming, please take care and revisit this important conversation when you're ready. I'm pregnancy-focused chiropractor Dr. Elliot Berlin, and you're listening to the Informed Pregnancy Podcast. Kristen Mundy, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to host you. It's a topic we don't talk about very often, and I'm uncomfortable because I feel like I should
[0:55] have certain sensitivities, and I don't know if I will, but I'm hoping the universe gives them to me, and if not, you'll put me in my place. I'll do that. You've been through a million different things. You have just an incredible warm energy. I only just met you, and I'm like, how? I want to know everything, and you're also a professional in this space, and I could just tell you're one of those people that has been through some really challenging things, some of the most challenging things perhaps life has to offer, and you took that and decided to help other people have better experiences and support other people, and maybe even advocate to help people avoid the kinds of things that you've been
[1:33] through. Without being cryptic, I'll jump right in. Let's start at the beginning. Where
Kristin Mundy[1:37] are you from originally? Originally, I'm from Niagara Falls.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:41] Everyone knows Niagara Falls. Right, because of the Maid of the Mist.
Kristin Mundy[1:45] Yeah, exactly. Always fun doing the Maid of the Mist. Who doesn't like a poncho? Yeah, I grew up there. I now reside just outside of Toronto. Everyone knows Toronto too. Go Blue Jays.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:57] Go Dodgers. We were just talking about how we're arch enemies. Yes, but we still like each other.
Kristin Mundy[2:05] Yeah, so now I'm in just outside Toronto. I live here with my husband, who I've been married to for six years, and our two-year-old daughter, and we have a nice little life out here.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[2:16] Career-wise, what did you think you were going to do when you were starting to think
Kristin Mundy[2:19] about it? Oh boy, that's a good question. I actually come from education. I used to be a special needs teacher, and my role to dual-hood, I guess, that's where it came from. If you were to ask me this question when I was a little kid, I would have said I really want to be a mom. That was my career aspirations. That's cool. Yeah, I have four brothers, so I grew up with a big family. Which one are you? I'm right in the middle. Oh, the middle child. And I very much took on that mother role at a young age, and was obsessed with babies, and helped my mom all the time, and started babysitting really young. So my role into a doula actually makes a lot of sense,
[2:59] because doula means, literally, mother's helper. But I came from an education background, and when I first heard what a doula was, people talk about having a light bulb moment, and that was my light bulb moment. When I heard about it, I said, that's exactly what I meant to do. How did you hear about it? You didn't have kids. I didn't have kids at this time, no. Which is actually really unusual for most doulas, because usually when we become a doula, it's from our own birth experience, or, you know, becoming a mother, right? And for me, it came from a really just deep desire to support women in the most transformative time of their life. I was nannying also at this point on the side, so it kind of made sense.
[3:45] And I found out about a doula by talking to another nanny who was telling me that she was doing this new thing, and I was like, oh, like, I need to do that. It was a no-brainer. How long ago was that? So that was eight years ago, so I've been a doula now for eight years, which seems kind of crazy. It kind of feels like just yesterday and forever ago, all at the same time. But yeah, I would say I'm a well-seasoned doula now.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[4:08] In the doula training, is it what you thought it would be?
Kristin Mundy[4:13] It was what I thought it would be, and I was so excited to be a doula. I wanted all of that. I knew that I wanted to be a mother one day. That was still a really deep desire for me. And I already knew I had a gift with people. I had a gift with education. It kind of combines all my worlds, and that's why it really just made perfect sense. And I kind of ate up the doula world. I submerged myself deep. I learned everything and everything. And I know for a lot of doulas, it's really hard to get that initial start, but I was like 120% all in. And I went to full-time doula work just a few months after I enrolled, because I was just so in love with this career.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:03] Was your first doula birth the first live human birth you had been to?
Kristin Mundy[5:09] It was. Yes, it was.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:11] What was that like?
Kristin Mundy[5:12] It was crazy. It was a VBAC water birth at a home birth center.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:18] Okay, that is crazy. I mean, not the most ordinary first birth experience.
Kristin Mundy[5:22] Yeah, we really jumped in there, and I had to learn so much. And I was really lucky because I had obviously amazing mentors, and I also was very honest. I never acted like I knew everything. I very much was eager, though, to learn everything. So my response at the very beginning was, you know, I don't have the answer to that, but I'm going to find out. It's one of my favorite things to say.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:47] Everything's figureoutable, right? I've been to places in life where I'll get a question and feel like I should have an answer. And the desire is to sort of come up with an answer. But I think the much better answer is a good question. I'm not sure. Let me research that and get back to you, which, by the way, is how this podcast even started 15-plus years ago. I come from a very medical background. And I found myself in this birth world in Los Angeles where people are a bit more holistic, at least a good number, and they're asking all these questions about things that I don't know anything about. I'm like, I don't know. Let me get back to you.
[6:24] And then you just get the same question again. And again, I'm like, why don't I record that so anybody can listen to it at any time?
Kristin Mundy[6:30] Well, yeah, and just the whole notion of being a doula is not giving your clients just whatever they want to hear or some overarching statement that just makes them happy. It's really about meeting them at a level that they need and with honesty, right? So it made sense.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[6:47] What kind of emotions went through you at that water V-back?
Kristin Mundy[6:51] Oh, my gosh. It was the coolest moment of my life. It was honestly not D-plus. It is up there, though. It was funny because, and this is how I knew that this is also what I really wanted to do, is I wasn't tired. I was completely energized. I wasn't scared. I was completely calm. I've lived a lot of life before I became a doula, so I think I can handle situations that others would possibly freak out very calmly. And that's how I was affirmed that, yeah, this is the right choice because that was amazing, and I did so amazing, and I just saw how it really impacted her and her experience and his experience, too, our partners, and that's what it was all about, right?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[7:39] So I've interviewed a few people on the podcast who were in birth work before they had their first baby, notably in my mind, Carson Meyer and Haley Oaks. Carson became a doula. Haley was a doula and then became a midwife. And all of you, you're definitely included in this, have this energy of like, I was definitely on this planet before and I was a very popular birth worker. You just seem to have the wisdom and the confidence and the comfort with it all just built into you, hardwired from birth. Did being a part of that experience make you even more want to be a mom or?
Kristin Mundy[8:18] Oh, yeah, even when I started being a doula, so before I became a doula, I actually was pregnant at one point. It would have been four years before I became a doula and I sadly miscarried that pregnancy, but I always knew I wanted to be a mom, but my first pregnancy, that really ignited this heartache and just deep desire to become a mother on earth one day. And when I became a doula, that didn't go away. I wasn't pining after it because I just had a deep belief that it was coming in its perfect time, but it definitely, the whole time, yeah, I couldn't wait.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:59] That pregnancy was before you met your husband.
Kristin Mundy[9:02] It was. It was sort of one of those oops. It was an oops. It started off as an oops and then it was a very welcomed and wanted pregnancy for sure to the point where I got a new job, I got a new apartment, and I told my whole family.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:20] Oh, wow.
Kristin Mundy[9:22] Yeah, it was definitely.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:22] How far along were you with?
Kristin Mundy[9:24] I miscarried at 11 weeks. It was a miscarriage, so I didn't know the baby actually had passed a couple of weeks before that. Back then, it's so funny looking back. It's not funny, but it's interesting looking back at that first loss and how differently I view that now, being 13 years older and what I would have done differently or how it was so pushed aside until I became more of an adult, I would say. But yeah, that was a really pivotal change for me was that miscarriage.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:00] How did you find it, meaning it was a miscarriage until it wasn't?
Kristin Mundy[10:05] So what ended up happening, I had a horrible first trimester, I'll say that. I was sick as a dog and one day I just woke up and I felt like the lights were turned on and I was like, oh, wow, I feel so much better. People told me that maybe around 11 weeks, I might start to feel better, 12 weeks, I might start to feel better. So here I was thinking that that's what was going on and then I went grocery shopping one day and I felt it. I felt myself started to bleed and I called my mother and I said, I'm bleeding and she knew I was pregnant. She picked me up and we went to the hospital and that's when I found out I had lost the baby.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:50] How old were you?
Kristin Mundy[10:51] So I was 24 then and I feel like I was a baby back then but I said I grew up in Niagara Falls, right? If anyone knows Niagara, it is actually quite a small town and the large majority of my friends had already been mothers for years and years and years. So for me to be pregnant to welcome a baby at that age didn't seem that crazy.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:14] Typical.
Kristin Mundy[11:15] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:15] Yeah. You said now, flash forward, looking back, you would have handled things differently. So how does that mean? What did you do and what would you have done differently?
Kristin Mundy[11:25] So after that first loss, I think because I didn't have a partner and I wasn't married and there's all these things that you're supposed to do before you welcome a baby, I felt the people in my life might have been a little bit relieved. They were sad for me but also kind of relieved. Like for me, it was traumatizing. I was heartbroken and I didn't know how to move on from that and I think it's because it was never held. It was never witnessed. I never processed it with anyone. I also had a DNC for that miscarriage and I made that decision out of fear, not out of what was best for me and my body and for what I ultimately wanted.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:18] Just saying you had the option to let it pass naturally or to have a medical sort of dusting and cleaning. Yeah. You had the DNC?
Kristin Mundy[12:26] I had the DNC, yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:28] So looking back, you might have chose to…
Kristin Mundy[12:30] I think I most definitely would have. I wasn't given full consent on what I was choosing. I didn't know that there's an increase of scar tissue. Now, knowing what I know, having had miscarried again, the process of letting my body do what it needed to do was actually like people will say, it was so traumatizing to me. But for me, it was really helped with that processing. It gave me time to kind of understand what was going on. It allowed me to create rituals afterwards. Whereas the DNC, I was just put out. I didn't have a support person. I woke up and it was over. And it was like that pregnancy for me just felt like it didn't happen. So it never really was properly dealt with.
[13:19] And if I could go back and be my own doula, it would have just been so different.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:25] I'm really sorry you had that experience. Unfortunately, it wasn't the last of similar type experiences, but I'm already learning from you. And so is everybody listening. And so I appreciate that you share because it's important for other people to hear and to learn and for all of us to talk about it because then we'll be able to support somebody who inevitably is going to go through it in our lives.
Kristin Mundy[13:48] Yeah, I think like this is one of the reasons why I became a doula, to be honest. It's like, I don't feel like I was given full and complete informed consent of what my choices were and what that would look like and how it affects future pregnancies and my mental health and so many things.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:03] And it's a lot to think about. And I think that probably for most people when they end up in those shoes, they don't really have anything to base their decisions off of.
Kristin Mundy[14:12] Totally. And if you don't have anyone that's well-versed in being trauma-informed or in-laws, it makes sense that the people in your life wouldn't know how to support you, right?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:23] Absolutely. Your own personal journey had quite a few more twists and so did your professional journey. Let's take a little break when we come back. I'll continue to learn from you. We'll be right back.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:46] Welcome back. We're talking to Kristen Mundy. And okay, so you have at age 24 an unexpected pregnancy that you grow to love and then not really the most informed process of ending the pregnancy, you know, things that now in retrospect you would have done differently, things that you learned over time. You did, though, then find your husband.
Kristin Mundy[15:11] I did.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[15:12] And then I know there's a burning desire inside you to become a mom. So is that something you pursued quickly?
Kristin Mundy[15:20] So I will backtrack just a little bit. I do say I would do things differently with that first loss, but I also have grown appreciation that I did the best I could with the choices I had. And it did make me who I am today. So I have lots of grace for what happened then. Yeah, I would do things differently, but I don't have regrets, if that makes sense.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[15:39] That does make a lot of sense.
Kristin Mundy[15:41] Yeah, so I did meet my husband. And it's funny because that first miscarriage, it really did catapult my life in other ways. So after I had that, like I went through this huge medical ordeal and it was triggered from that pregnancy. So that pregnancy sent me into a huge flare, never have happened to me before. And that was about six months later. And all of a sudden I was paralyzed from my belly button down. Yeah, I get the story. It gets crazy. Sometimes when I say it, I'm like, did that really happen? And I found out that I had lupus and my lupus had caused something called transverse myelitis. It was a huge shift in my life because I had been diagnosed with this new disease.
[16:32] Went through chemotherapy. I really was like fighting for my life. And I did fight and I won.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:39] Congratulations.
Kristin Mundy[16:40] Yeah, I know it seems like, you know, such a blur and kind of crazy. But after that, it really, you know, put things in perspective in my life of what I want because I just went through these two huge traumas back to back. And I wanted to meet an amazing man. I wanted to get a good career.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:58] Like a Blue Jays fan?
Kristin Mundy[16:59] Yeah. And, you know, what did I do when I got better? I signed up for online dating. I enrolled in the school, met my husband, the first month that I signed up for online dating. And on our second date, I remember saying, you know, I really want to have children. Like, where are you at with that? And we joke about it because we were very different. He was a 25 year old, you know, male. And I had just gone through this huge pivotal life moment and I was ready to start a life. And he was like, I don't even know if I want kids. And I'm like, what? No. Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[17:36] Yeah. By the way, for you, I'm surprised you waited till the second date.
Kristin Mundy[17:39] Yeah, honestly. But I fell in love and I knew that he was an amazing man. He would be an amazing father. I knew we wanted the same things with life and we just needed some time. And I was right. So it worked out.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[17:53] It worked out.
Kristin Mundy[17:54] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[17:55] How did you resolve the sort of different timelines you had in mind?
Kristin Mundy[18:01] I'm a very patient woman. I will say that. I'm a very, very patient woman. And some people will say I'm a little too patient. But we also lived a lot of life at this time and we had a lot of adventures and everything just needed to go on its own timing. And that's when I became a doula, was a couple of years after that we met and a couple of years after that, that's when he proposed and he sealed the deal. So it all kind of worked out the way that it needed to.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[18:30] Nice. Okay. And then how soon after that do you start trying for the baby?
Kristin Mundy[18:35] Yeah. So a year after we got married, we started trying.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[18:40] Everybody was on board?
Kristin Mundy[18:42] Everyone was on board. And I wouldn't have gotten married with him if he wasn't on board. This was always kind of the plan at this point. But we started trying. And I always had in the back of my mind just wondering like, oh, I had that miscarriage before. I wonder how things are going to be and what's going to happen. And you hear a lot that it's not uncommon to have a miscarriage. And I really thought that I kind of paid my dues already. So when we went into our pregnancy, I was elated because we got pregnant and people are going to kill me when they hear this, but we got pregnant right away. And we were thrilled. Yeah. We were thrilled and everything was looking great
[19:25] and it was perfect. We just had bought our first home all in the same month. We found out we're pregnant. We bought our first home. And it was a really exciting time in our lives.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:36] How did you feel in that first trimester?
Kristin Mundy[19:39] Horrible. I do not have good first trimesters.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:42] Repeat scenario.
Kristin Mundy[19:42] Yeah. Very, very sick. So one thing that made this pregnancy different is I had a subchorionic hematoma. Tons of bleeding and pretty horrific bleeding. I feel with women when they have a hematoma, sometimes they don't bleed at all. And then there's those ones that it's like a water faucet is turned on and that's kind of where I fell into things. And obviously it is scary. No pregnant woman ever wants to see blood. Never, never want to see blood. And the first time I had a bleeding episode, I thought for sure that we had lost the baby and to our surprise, we didn't. And then I had another one and it was the same thing. And then on our third one,
[20:28] that's when we found out that it was just too much. It was too much for the baby and that I was going to miscarry. So yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[20:36] How far into the pregnancy are we talking?
Kristin Mundy[20:39] So that pregnancy, I was 10 weeks. And with my first experience of having the DNC, I knew that I obviously I didn't want to do that this time. So I ended up choosing, and this is another helpful information for people, but I ended up choosing to let my body do it on its own. And I waited a really long time, a really long time, weeks, weeks and weeks went by. I think, yeah, three weeks went by, nothing was happening. And then I finally was like, okay, I need to intervene here because my mental health is not doing well at all. Like it was pretty excruciating.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:15] Yeah. Was medical advice to not wait?
Kristin Mundy[21:20] So we thought because I was bleeding already that like things were going to happen. And then time just continued to go on. No one thought that it would go on that long. And then I just like mentally couldn't handle that anymore. And I knew we needed to intervene. So I asked my doctor for mesopristol just to help support things along and-
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:44] To basically put you into contractions?
Kristin Mundy[21:47] Yeah. And another tibet, helpful tibet here, is, you know, even when I was given this option, like I was a doula at this point, you know, I knew birth, I knew how to support birth. I knew how to make informed decisions, at least I thought. But I didn't really live in the realm of loss at this point or pregnancy loss. Some of my clients had went through miscarriages, but I never was there early enough to like hold their hand and help them through it. So when my doctor prescribed mesopristol, you know, I was told like you can take Tylenol. It's just going to be some period cramping. It's going to be over within like four hours. And, you know, when I took the mesopristol,
[22:29] I went into full-blown labor at home. And I remember that catching me really off guard, my husband really off guard because he was not expecting to be my support person. We both just thought this was going to be an easy thing. And it wasn't. It was definitely labor. And it worked. I labored in the tub for hours. I knew how to support myself in this sense because I knew birth. I knew the things to do. And I delivered a little tiny baby into my hands. And for some people that might feel horrifying. And in a way it is because no one wants to ever do that. But it gave me a lot of closure. It helped my body and my mind kind of catch up to what was happening.
[23:15] It allowed me to say goodbye and to do something to honor our baby. We buried it in the yard at our first house. So it was really special. And it also allowed my husband to be a part of it because it wasn't just me losing this baby. He was losing this baby too. So it felt really healing. It was in a sense it was surprising and shocking in that sense. But at the same time I felt it really to be really healing.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:41] The second miscarriage in the first trimester, but towards the end, is that already raising a flag for you?
Kristin Mundy[23:50] It was, especially because I was diagnosed with lupus. And it's interesting because after I did lose the second pregnancy, obviously at this point we were like, okay, I've had two miscarriages. There's a lot of excuses in terms of like, oh, but they're so far apart. And, you know, these things happen. I got a lot of those. But we had to do a lot of digging and like, I was tested for all the things. Everything came back normal. I was tested for every blood clotting disorder. My uterus was checked. Everything looked to be fine. So my husband and I just chalked it up as these things happen. And unfortunately it's happened twice. So, yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[24:31] You said you buried the baby at your first home. Does that mean you didn't do any testing on the genetic?
Kristin Mundy[24:37] We didn't. No, and that wasn't something that was offered to me at all. You know, going back knowing what I know now, I know it would have made a difference, but maybe it would have helped me feel like at least I turned that stone over. Because ultimately what we found out was, you know, I was the problem and we could get to that. It wasn't my babies that were the problem.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[24:58] How old were you at this point?
Kristin Mundy[25:01] I would have been 30 years old, yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[25:03] So six years in between.
Kristin Mundy[25:05] Yeah, seven years actually. So I would have been 31, 31, yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[25:09] Is the recommendation just try again?
Kristin Mundy[25:11] Yep, try again. They said wait a cycle, try again. So I should say before we started trying, we did testing before then. So I did all the blood cloning factors even before my second pregnancy and everything came back normal. Everything was normal. So we felt pretty confident that it was just bad luck. And then when we decided to get pregnant again, we just put me on progesterone this time and thought maybe like that was going to be the solution.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[25:36] Were you going to get pregnant quickly again?
Kristin Mundy[25:39] Yes, very quickly. I never struggled getting pregnant. I struggled staying pregnant. That was the problem.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[25:46] Through this whole time, you're attending births?
Kristin Mundy[25:49] Attending births, yeah. And postpartum support.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[25:52] I kind of feel like for me that would be salt in an open wound.
Kristin Mundy[25:56] Honestly, it never was. For me, and maybe this is something to talk about with my therapist, but for me, I find so much healing for myself by helping others.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[26:08] I do too, but in that particular world.
Kristin Mundy[26:10] I know. It's very bizarre.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[26:13] No, I mean, you're clearly a better person than I am.
Kristin Mundy[26:17] Definitely not. But I will say it is the same world, but I also just found so much joy and fulfillment from it. So it honestly was that's where the healing aspect goes. I had already been in a world where everyone was pregnant around me and everyone had family. So I had 10 years experience at this point of being, wanting to be a mother and it not happening. So it was just doing what I've always been doing, wanting to be a mother and kind of being on the sidelines of that. So it wasn't anything new, and it actually gave me an outlet to feel hopeful and have hope, yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[26:56] How did pregnancy number three unfold?
Kristin Mundy[27:00] So pregnancy number three, I mean, everything that I'd already gone through was so transformative, but pregnancy number three was where, you know, my world got absolutely wrought upside down. We got pregnant. We were super happy. Everything looked great, normal, as you can say. But again, I had another hematoma. And this time we were very, very cautious because we're like, okay, bleeding is an issue for me, obviously. So we're going to err on the side of caution here and put you on bed rest. Now, obviously, as a doula, that's very hard to be on bed rest. So I had to completely shut my business down pretty much like overnight, find the backups for all the clients that I had.
[27:47] And I was in bed until 16 weeks. My doctor told me, if you're bleeding, you're in bed. And that's kind of what we did. And who knows if that was the right choice, but that's what we did.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[27:59] Yeah. Well, I mean, 16 weeks is a lot further.
Kristin Mundy[28:03] It's a long time.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[28:04] Yeah.
Kristin Mundy[28:04] So I was willing to do anything and everything. And every week that passed was, you know, being in bed for 16 weeks sounds horrible, but I was so happy that I made it into the second trimester. And I passed the times where I lost my pregnancies previously. So I was overjoyed. I was totally fine, you know, parking in bed.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[28:23] I mean, it sounds like you would have stayed in bed for 40 weeks if they told you that's what.
Kristin Mundy[28:26] Oh, yeah. I would have danced on my head, given my left leg. I would have done anything, right? So I was totally fine with it. And I also was very sick once again. So it kind of was like, well, I feel like crap anyways.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[28:38] Was it beyond the first trimester?
Kristin Mundy[28:42] Yes, I was sick the whole time. Probably up until I was about 20 weeks pregnant, I was pretty sick. And part of me was like, do I have hyperemesis? But I didn't because I wasn't puking. It was just like all day feeling really lousy. But the bleeding eventually stopped, and the lousiness feeling eventually faded. And it was the happiest time of my life. I had never been that happy before. I've never felt so beautiful. I never felt so excited, so in love with my husband. The anxiety was there, but it lessened so much. Every week that passed, it lessened. I really felt like we were going to be bringing this baby home. It was a really, really beautiful time of life.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[29:24] What happened after that?
Kristin Mundy[29:26] So I made it past 24 weeks, and that was a really big milestone because that's when people say, like, if you were to deliver, your baby has a chance of living, right? Yeah, so every week that we passed 24 weeks, I was like, wow, this baby is coming home. I never once in my entire life ever contemplated that I would lose my baby at this point if anything, I was like, maybe I would go into early labor, I'd have to have emergency c-section, I'd have to have a NICU baby, whatever it was, those other traumas that we experience. But one morning I woke up and it was actually the day of my baby shower. So it was my first baby shower, which was obviously a humongous day for me.
[30:09] I had waited so long to have a baby shower for myself after attending dozens and dozens of baby showers for years. And that morning I woke up and I noticed that I was, like, I was putting on my clothes because I was getting dressed up and I noticed that they were a little tight and I experienced some swelling. And I weighed myself and I gained about five pounds really, really rapidly and I'm not a big person, so five pounds is pretty significant. And I paged my midwife or I emailed my midwife and she just said, you know, page the office if you have a concern. I didn't feel like it was page-worthy, so I just waited to hear back from her and I did.
[30:45] And she just said, you know, it's the summer, you just had a baby shower, ate lots of salty foods, we'll keep an eye on it, but some swelling is pretty normal. And that's what I chalked it up as. And then, you know, the days passed and two days later I was still like pretty swollen, like not significantly, just enough where I even, as a dual I knew, like swelling is normal and pregnant. But at that point I had felt like my baby might have slowed down a little bit. And I paged my midwife, told her that those concerns, told her I was feeling lousy still, told her I still experienced some swelling. And she just gave me the whole, you know, you're 30 weeks pregnant,
[31:24] your baby's getting big, babies run out of room, as long as they meet 10 kicks in two hours, you're good. I really think that, you know, this is just your anxiety. You know, you've had two losses before, it's normal for you to be worried. And I was just like, okay, okay. Like I was, you know, I've never been this pregnant before. I was still a first time mom needing support and I really leaned into trusting my midwives. And I didn't know much about stillbirth, which I feel I have guilt around because I am a doula. And I think in that moment I needed my own doula to say, hey, if you feel like something's wrong, like let's get you the care that you're needing, right?
[32:11] Yeah, a few more days passed and still the same thing and paged them again. They gave me the same thing. No one encouraged me to get checked out. And that whole week I just felt like I was nuts. I was like, wow, I'm really struggling. Like I'm going to have a really long pregnancy if I'm struggling this much already. And then I woke up on Friday and I had a headache and I was like, okay, so symptoms just progressively got worse throughout the week. And then Saturday morning came and I remember laying in bed with my husband just saying, at what point is it anxiety or what point is this your intuition? At what point do I need to say to my midwives,
[32:50] I just need you to check me out. I feel like something's wrong. Why not just check me out? And I paged them again and I got the same thing. It was like, it's Saturday, don't go to the hospital, don't waste your Saturday, take some Tylenol.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[33:06] It's like the opposite. They're encouraging you not to.
Kristin Mundy[33:09] Yeah. Honestly, I look back and it makes me feel really sad. This was still COVID time and in our area in Toronto, and I'm sure this is everywhere, but our midwives were like worked to the bone. And I look back and I just think, you know, they were exhausted, they were overworked. And I always felt looking back as well that they kind of treated me, sometimes they treated me like a doula that knew what she was talking about and it took my concerns at face value and other times they treated me like a first time mom and pushed my concerns away. And it usually was dependent on what their agenda was. And at this point, they treated me like a first time mom
[33:50] saying, oh, this is just your anxiety. And I'm like, well, I'm a doula and I know like that these are concerning and like, why aren't you taking that into consideration? But I hung up that phone with my midwife and I was pissed at this point.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:03] Could you have gone even though they're like, oh, you know, don't waste your time?
Kristin Mundy[34:07] I could have gone. Yeah, I could have gone. But at the same time, after the whole week that I was told like, you're just anxious, I was like, wow, am I struggling that much? I'm really struggling with anxiety and I could have made a call any time to be like, I'm just gonna go in, but I didn't trust myself. And that will be the biggest regret of my life forever. But when I did hang up the phone, I did end up going in and I went against what my midwife had suggested. And at this point, you know, I had convinced myself so much that I was just in my head that I didn't even ask my husband to come with me. And I drove myself to the hospital. I, you know, let them know I was coming
[34:48] and let them know it was reduced fetal movement and they laid me on the bed and that's when my whole life changed when they told me that my daughter didn't have a heartbeat. And I was completely alone and of course, my life just flashed before me in that moment and I was devastated and crying and screaming and my nurse looked at me and told me I needed to be quiet because I was scaring the other mothers. I had to get her to call my husband, give him the news over the phone and he was at the hospital within five minutes.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[35:24] Yeah.
Kristin Mundy[35:25] And we had no idea what had happened because she looked perfect. We didn't know she was a girl yet but there's nothing in my pregnancy that was of such concern. We had different things happening like the hematoma and at one point I had a placental lake and everything was a non-issue according to my MFM. I was at an MFM at this point so I dual care with the midwife and MFM and no one thought that anything was of concern. So to find out that she had passed was just like, what? Especially after I'd worked so hard to get that far and that's where my life completely changed. My life, like my relationships, my work, everything. That was a very pivotal moment for me.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[36:11] Um, let's take a break. I mean, that's powerful. It's still setting in for me. Just the whole thing. I'm trying to take in all the elements how you got that far, how you got past so much, how you had the instinct, how you advocated for yourself to a degree but then were shut down. The idea that you're a birth professional and part of your brain knows something is wrong. But even for you it's hard to advocate for yourself that it's your baby shower day. And it's so intense. I know that part of that pivot is what led to what you do now. And I really want to learn more about how you figured out what was going on and what it is that was going on and how maybe we can help other people
[36:56] should they have something like that. And also the work that you're doing to support others. And I know you have a baby, so. There's a lot left. You ended up getting there. We'll be right back. Welcome back. We're talking to Kristin Mundy. And I can see why that changed your life forever. I mean, I think just hearing about it, honestly, it's going to change my life forever. I'm going to have an impact here. And I want to continue learning from you and I want to learn things that are going to help me help other people. So what is next for you?
Kristin Mundy[37:39] Yeah. So after that, we did investigations and I did ultimately find out that I do have a blood cloning disorder, the same blood cloning disorder that I was tested for before I even tried to get pregnant. I have antiphospholipid syndrome. Yeah. And that's why my daughter had passed. And when I talk about her being pivotal, of course, it's going to be pivotal when you lose your child. But as my, you know, dualist self who I am, you know, the second I found out that she had passed, I was online researching, trying to learn as much as I can to prepare myself to birth her. And I was exposed to this whole new world that I had no idea about before. And that was the lost world.
[38:24] And even before I birthed her, I had pivoted and started supporting women in the DMs before, like even when she was, you know, to be frank, dead inside me still. And because I found this world where women were preparing to get birth to their baby, but because their baby wasn't here anymore in the physical sense, they weren't given, you know, birth support. They weren't given full informed consent. They weren't given the love and care that they deserved. And they also didn't know how to advocate for it. So here I was being a birth worker. And now officially I was already a lost mom, but now a still birth mom, letting women know like, these are the questions you want to ask
[39:13] and these are options that you have and make sure you ask for this. And that's when I was like shown there's this amazingly huge need of mothers who are preparing to say goodbye or just got devastating news. And, you know, with my history with my first two losses, I had a lot of experience in this realm of different experiences too. And I knew that I could do a lot of good in this world, this loss world, in terms of how to advocate for yourself in loss, how to grieve. And that's when my business really pivoted to supporting lost moms. And then after that, if you can believe it, my husband and I were not done. And I think there's two feelings that people have after they lose a child.
[39:57] And it's either I need to get pregnant right away or I need to take some time to heal. And I was in the camp of desperately needing a baby in my arms, but I did take some time to grieve, let my body heal, get some support, make sure that I had more answers and better care set up for my next pregnancy. And we tried again, and we were successful again. This time took a little bit longer. And very early on in that pregnancy, even with my daughter, when we lost her, her name is Vianna. When we lost Vianna, my doctors told me this is just lightning hitting. This is a lightning strike. We know what the problem is now. We know how to treat it. So your success for a healthy pregnancy
[40:49] after this is it'll go up at least 75%. I was like, wow, 75%, okay. We should be good. We're doing something different this time. So I was put on blood thinners, which I should have been on.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[41:01] Yeah, just because we mentioned APS. It's an autoimmune disorder. And your body sort of creates antibodies that make your blood clot. And it can create little clots in the placenta and prevent the baby from getting good blood flow. So I guess the two questions are, why didn't it show up the first time you tested for it? And then once you know you have it, how do you treat it?
Kristin Mundy[41:26] Yeah, so I actually tested for it three times before I was pregnant. And every time that we tested was negative because you're actually supposed to test more than once. You're supposed to test once and then repeat it again in 12 weeks. So why it didn't show up in the test previously is because, and this is news to me, but it can wax and wane. So you can be negative and then get pregnant and it trigger this to flare up in your body. And that's what happened to me. And you don't test for it during pregnancy because you won't get accurate results is what I was told. So that kind of makes you feel, it's a little unnerving, right? It's a little unnerving that this can just happen.
[42:05] But if I was given out of care when I first noticed some changes, we could have done an NST, maybe saw that baby was not doing so well and I would have delivered early. And then how you treat it is, you should be on blood thinner. So there's two different ways of treating it actually. One is blood thinner. So low molecular heparin, it's called, or lovinox, what people like to, yeah. So you inject yourself it like. Yeah, you inject it in your belly. Some people it's once, some people it's twice a day. For me, it was once a day. At least daily. Every day, yeah, for your pregnancy and six weeks postpartum. And then some other people are also prescribed an immunosuppressant,
[42:42] usually hydroxychloroquine. And what that does is just keep your immune system at bay so it doesn't create anything or your body doesn't attack itself. So I was put on both of those for my next pregnancy and that felt really safe for me because I was like, okay, we're doing something different. But my doctor gave us the news that we got struck by lightning again and my child that I was carrying had a severe heart abnormality called ectopia cordis and was not going to be compatible with life.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[43:17] How much in one person?
Kristin Mundy[43:19] Yeah, that was.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[43:20] Two people.
Kristin Mundy[43:22] Yeah, and that was a shock for us just because it had nothing to do with what-
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[43:26] Total fluke.
Kristin Mundy[43:27] Yeah, it really was lightning striking. And I lost my son at 17 weeks and we went through the same process of delivering him and naming him. It was very like compounded trauma. I hadn't obviously even processed my daughter's death and here we were processing another baby and all the while I was still working, which is crazy. And yeah, that's what happened with my son. And if you would believe it, that was not enough to scare me away because I knew when I got quiet and I listened to that little voice, there really was a baby waiting for me. It was just really testing me to get to that. So we ended up trying again and we conceived my daughter and spoiler alert,
[44:16] she did make it here alive and she's two years old today.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[44:20] Congratulations.
Kristin Mundy[44:21] Thank you. She's the best thing in this world. I always say in this world because she's not the best kid ever because there were other kids that existed before her, but she's the best kid in this world.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[44:33] May I ask what your birth was like?
Kristin Mundy[44:36] So I actually had a planned caesarian because she was breech.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[44:40] Oh, you're kidding. Canada is the one that started that whole we can't deliver breech babies badly anymore.
Kristin Mundy[44:46] Honestly, that is a story in itself because I did everything under the sun to make sure this baby was not breeched to the point where I just thought to myself maybe there's a reason why she is and I'm just gonna trust that there's something I need to learn through this because it actually delivered my daughter Vienna unmedicated vaginally and it was obviously a very different birth but it was the best experience of my life and I really did want that with her but I was very open to just whatever got my baby here safely.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[45:17] But even vaginal caesarian just having a baby move through your body into the world alive.
Kristin Mundy[45:25] So as a doula this is where things really shifted as well. This was my second huge shift because as a doula we really want a lot of doulas anyways want advocate for this certain type of birth that's the most physiological the most supported and supporting your natural you're born to birth all these things and these are all things that I believe in and are well and good and then everything changed when I was like I just want this baby here alive like that really is what I want and this is where when I say things pivoted you know being pregnant after loss being pregnant after experiencing still birth was the second hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
[46:07] There's not a lot of traumas that you experience that you willingly expose yourself to again do you know what I mean? And that's what pregnancy after loss is you're really walking in the fire hoping not to get burned this time and in the birth world most of the support that is available I'm very well and aware of how to support a pregnancy that's what I do that's what I've been doing at this point for you know six seven years and that part I knew but when I went looking for support in my pregnancy after loss there really was not much like it was really slim pickings like everything out there is really geared towards this like hopeful joyous beautiful pregnancy
[46:55] and my pregnancy did not feel like that in moments it did but it also had this other element of trauma and fear and yeah I wanted a beautiful birth but I wanted an alive baby more than that and that really tested me as a doula and expose a different world again that it's not just about supporting a physiological process it's also supporting about you know these deep rooted fears and support and like a special kind of compassionate care and language like being trauma informed that the majority of care out there isn't not even obese not even midwives and it really is a different kind of care caring for someone that's pregnant after loss because unless you've experienced it yourself
[47:43] it's really almost impossible to understand so my pregnancy was really lonely it was really isolating I didn't want to go to the prenatal classes or you know the prenatal yoga or you know I didn't want to be in those worlds because I was just surrounded by women who were having a joyous pregnancy a blissful pregnancy and I wanted them to have that I didn't want to be the person that came in that was the nightmare horror story I really wanted them to have that experience and I also was grieving my innocence of pregnancy that it would never be the same and when I was pregnant with my daughter I told myself like wow if I'm experiencing this there are millions of women
[48:31] who are also experiencing this complete isolation when this should be the most joyous time of your life and I always promise myself like if I get through this pregnancy and I hold an alive baby at the end of this I'm going to do whatever I can to kind of bring both those worlds together my doula world and my loss world and make sure that these women don't have to go through their pregnancy after loss feeling this way
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[48:55] so you have a platform
Kristin Mundy[48:57] I do have a platform
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[48:58] you can't be there personally
Kristin Mundy[48:59] for everybody who's pregnant after loss no I cannot
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[49:03] but virtually you can offer them support tell me about your platform
Kristin Mundy[49:08] so I have a variety of different options and I really do try to support women you know from right from loss to you know navigating next steps or trying to conceive into pregnancy after loss and a variety of different things so I do have an online community it's free I give a lot of you know support on Instagram we love Instagram it's such a beautiful accessible tool that I can provide support for absolutely free but I also have you know a trying to conceive after loss community online and I also have an offer called The Haven which is my pregnancy after loss program and that one specifically because we are focusing a lot on pregnancy after loss
[49:52] that one is kind of combining everything that I felt I needed in my pregnancy after loss in one place so it has you know the doula support when you need it from a doula that understands loss not just a doula off the street they're wonderful but like I said unless you've been trained in bereavement or experienced loss it's just something that is really hard to support someone with it has birth education that is geared towards pregnancy after loss so rather than it being you know just a cookie cutter birth education it really talks about how to find safety throughout your pregnancy and your delivery it teaches you how to navigate you know the grief and the hope
[50:36] and it's just a little bit more comprehensive for a lost mom it also has a beautiful community so that community that you feel like you're losing in your pregnancy after loss you're just in the wrong spot in the wrong neighborhood yeah that community exists and that's what I wanted to really provide them because you know there's so much to pregnancy about sharing it it's not just about sharing the fear of the pregnancy after loss but it's about like commiserating and having a normal experience and feeling like you can have that while also having all these other things going on and we also have you know learning workshops every week so that's a good time
[51:12] you know duals usually give prenatal education and that's when we are able to do that and connect as a group so it's a really beautiful hub just kind of everything all in one and mesh in one place and any woman that all over the world if they need it and are looking for this kind of care this extra support in their pregnancy after loss it exists and it's here for you when you need it yeah and I also obviously have my podcast so one big thing that for me when I was pregnant with my daughter is I used to live listening to birth stories I mean I listen to your podcast all the time you know I listen to every yeah yeah every podcast every birth story
[51:51] but what in like Christina Perry's was one birth story where I was like oh my god like I see myself here yeah you can relate but coming across those stories was so difficult and that was something that made me feel more isolated whereas like my first pregnancy I listened to birth stories every day so I made the Rainbow Connection podcast as a way for women who have just lost or they are pregnant again to be able to go to a place that you know they can hear stories that look and sound like them where they can find validation and community and hope that's something that I'm definitely really really proud of
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[52:32] I am so sorry for all of the loss that you experienced
Kristin Mundy[52:37] thank you
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[52:37] and I feel like lightning should not strike one person even once and more than once and again you have such a strength to you and the ability to take that and do what you're doing to help other people and to create that community and to create the resources that weren't there for you it's really special and powerful I was hoping to learn from you and I am but I'm going to go visit all of your resources and soak up everything I can so I can be a better supporter of others we're going to include all your resources on our show notes but tell us where we can find you online
Kristin Mundy[53:13] so I hang out most on Instagram and you can find me at the.dulalife my podcast is at The Rainbow Connection and then my website is thedulalife.ca so Instagram is where I hang out most any three of those platforms you can definitely find me in
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[53:31] Kristen thank you again thank you for sharing and thank you for building community at home thanks for listening to the informed pregnancy podcast and for more pregnancy and parenting information just like this visit us online at informedpregnancy.com
Want more pregnancy + parenting? Start your FREE TRIAL of Informed Pregnancy+ and get access to all our curated pregnancy and parenting content — original series, iconic birth films like The Business of Being Born, prenatal workouts and more.
Margot Del Rey is a French born fashion veteran turned holistic postpartum and lactation specialist. After a transformative move to California, she founded Sisterhood, an integrative postpartum and motherhood support practice combining Ayurvedic care and yoga based healing.
Informed Pregnancy Media and Mahmee present an all new podcast! One Way or a Mother is a new narrative podcast from Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC. Each season is an intimate story of one woman, one pregnancy, and all of the preparations, emotions, and personal history leading up to the birth. Episodes feature the expectant mother along with her family, doctors, and birth work team.
AI-generated transcript with speaker labels — may contain errors, especially names and medical terms. Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC appears in blue; Margot Del Rey in orange.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:00] My guest today is a French-born fashion industry veteran turned holistic postpartum and lactation specialist. After years working in high luxury fashion in Paris and a transformative move to California, she founded Sisterhood, an integrative postpartum and motherhood support practice combining Ayurvedic care, lactation consultation, and yoga-based healing. I'm pregnancy-focused chiropractor Dr. Elliot Berlin, and you're listening to the Informed Pregnancy Podcast. Margot Delbray, welcome to the podcast.
Margot Del Rey[0:46] Hi, thank you for having me.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:48] I'm so honored to have you, not only on the podcast, but also more recently at our practice offering your incredibly nurturing and restorative services and care. We'll get into that in a moment. Let's start at the beginning. Where are you from originally?
Margot Del Rey[1:03] So I'm from France. I was born and raised in the suburb of Paris, and I spent all of my childhood there and like a lot of my adulthood, too.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:15] Whenever you talk, whenever I hear you talk or you talk to me, I get hungry for pastries right away. All it takes is the accent. Yeah, it's all the croissant, right? Oh, I'm going to need a minute. OK, so France, and what was your aspiration growing up? Like when I grew up, I want to.
Margot Del Rey[1:37] When I, oh, I wanted to be a dancer, a singer and the person who replaced singers and dancer when they're sick.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:47] Oh, an understudy?
Margot Del Rey[1:49] Yeah, probably.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:51] So you sing and dance?
Margot Del Rey[1:53] I do sing. I don't really dance.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:56] OK, we have, now we have something in common. I can sing, but nobody wants to see my hands including me. OK, so singer and dancer, but that's not what you ended up doing. So what was the actual trajectory?
Margot Del Rey[2:09] So I don't really know. I mean, I do know, actually. I went to New York to follow my high school boyfriend, who's today my husband.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[2:22] Oh, wow. Stuck with it.
Margot Del Rey[2:24] Yes, I did stuck with it. And in New York, I started learning English. I didn't know how to speak English at all. I had a very strong French accent and my English school was right next to the FIT. So the Fashion Institute and Technology in New York. And I would see like all of those cool girls, like coming out of this big building. And I wanted what they had, like just this energy. So I peaked and I actually did a certificate course there. And that was the start of my fashion career. When I came back to France, to Paris, six months after that, I did fashion school. And I actually did it only for a year. I dropped out because I had an amazing opportunity to work at Saint-Laurent,
[3:21] like in the middle of my school years.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:24] Wow, that's amazing. So you didn't even have to finish school. You just jumped right into the field.
Margot Del Rey[3:29] I did.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:30] Yeah. How many years ago was that?
Margot Del Rey[3:32] I was very young. I was probably 22.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:37] 22 years old. So you still have a strong French accent, but your English is very good too. So how long did you stay in fashion?
Margot Del Rey[3:47] I stayed in fashion for about eight years, seven years. You liked it? I loved it. I loved it. It was very fun. It was very artistic. Like I loved the energy of it until it became a nightmare. It was very hard. People are very stressed and it's a very high demanding industry. I was working long hours and when my boyfriend, the same one at the time, started jumping on his own venture and traveling to San Francisco. He was coming back and forth. So he was going to San Francisco and then coming back to Paris. And every time he was coming was Fashion Week. And so during Fashion Week, when you work in fashion, you're just working almost 24-7.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[4:45] Yeah, not available.
Margot Del Rey[4:47] So I could never see him and we did it for probably nine months. And then one day, like in the middle of a meeting, like, you know, trying to pick a fabric for the show, I just quit on the spot. I was like, I'm done. I called my husband, I mean, my boyfriend at the time. And I told him, okay, I just quit. I'm coming to San Francisco. And he was like, well, we don't have visa. You know, I didn't raise any money. Like, how are we going to do that?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:21] For his new startup that he was working on?
Margot Del Rey[5:24] Yes.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:25] Wait, is he French also?
Margot Del Rey[5:26] He is French also.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:28] Right. Okay. So neither one of you had visa. So you're living in San Francisco without jobs, without permanence, just…
Margot Del Rey[5:37] He was just traveling back and forth. So like on a travel visa. And I was still in Paris at that time, not even following him. But when he came back, the last time I told him we're getting married. And, you know, you need to raise money, do something. And that's what he did. And the fact that he raised money allowed us to get a permanent visa at that time.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[6:00] Nice. Okay. And did you have any idea what you would do next? Were you still thinking fashion in the U S or done with fashion?
Margot Del Rey[6:09] I was thinking fashion in the U S, but in San Francisco, there is less companies, I mean, less fashion houses than in Paris. And I also wanted to just, you know, think about what I wanted to do next. So I started just like helping their company. So my husband company, like a lot on the side and I started writing. I've always wanted to tell stories and I've always written women's stories. So I just started writing fiction for myself and I enjoyed it. And I was like, I don't really need to work now. Let's wait six months and let's see where this writing takes us.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[6:57] You mean to maybe make a career out of it? At that time. Yes, maybe everything's creative singing, dancing, fashion, design, writing your creative by nature.
Margot Del Rey[7:09] Yeah. Yeah. Everything is kind of connected. Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[7:12] What happened next?
Margot Del Rey[7:13] So next the company decided to move to LA. They pivot, they pivot ed, and then they were creating something that was closer to the entertainment industry. So we all move to LA. We have a big house in Beverly Hills where we host lots of fun parties with tech people and people from the entertainment. And I'm still looking for a job in fashion and there are more opportunities here in LA, but the CEO of the company who became our best friend asks me if I want to work with him instead and just, you know, be the office manager and his assistant and just like help him with everything. And that's pretty much what I was doing anyway, without being paid.
[8:07] So, so why not? So why not? So I said, yes. And, you know, when one moves to LA, they need to do yoga. So yeah, I also started just going to yoga a lot and I signed up for a yoga teacher training at the same time.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:28] Interesting. So you, I mean, the young living in France, working in the very demanding fashion industry lifestyle is not the healthiest in any way, shape or form.
Margot Del Rey[8:38] Not at all. I was very gray, smoking a lot, drinking a lot. And it was the opposite of the lifestyle I had in LA after. All right.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:50] So you come to LA and then you stop smoking and drinking and start yoga instead.
Margot Del Rey[8:55] I know.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:55] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a big shift.
Margot Del Rey[8:57] It is a big shift.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:59] I mean, did you feel the difference pretty quick?
Margot Del Rey[9:01] I mean, you know, when the body becomes healthy, that's when you can become pregnant. So that's what happens.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:09] Okay. Why don't we take a little break and we'll be right back for the next chapter of this interesting story. Don't go anywhere.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:27] Welcome back. We're talking to Margo Del Rey. Okay. So from the, I quit fashion and I'm going to wing it in San Francisco, then moving to Los Angeles with the company and a big lifestyle change, you decide to get healthy, no more smoking, no more drinking, not only taking yoga, but starting to teach yoga. And of course you find out you're pregnant. Was it something on your radar to get pregnant?
Margot Del Rey[9:50] So it wasn't my radar at the end of my career in Paris. So before my husband left, I was working at Louis Vuitton and Louis Vuitton is like kind of the highest in the industry. And I was comfortable and I was like, if I'm working there, like I want to just stay there and have kids there. That wasn't my husband's plan. He flew away in San Francisco instead. But I've always felt like I was a mom and he was never ready. He thought, you know, we needed more money, more space. So when it happened, I kind of freaked out, but I told him right away and he was the happiest person on earth. It was like, why did we wait that long? So yeah, it was a very good surprise.
[10:41] It was like probably like, yeah, we were like 10 years together and like six months in LA.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:49] Right. How long ago? Looking back.
Margot Del Rey[10:52] Oh, seven years, seven and a half. My son just turned seven years old. Thank you.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:59] Okay. So did you have a plan, a vision for the birth?
Margot Del Rey[11:03] So I wanted an unmedicated birth in a hospital. I hired a doula. I don't even know how I heard about doulas because in France, we have midwives in the hospital and midwives kind of do the job of doulas and lactation like a little different, but they are a lot of like, they're a great support, so I don't really know how I heard of a doula probably from a book I read.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:37] Also, but the unmedicated birth, which seems to me like through the people that come through my office, more common in Europeans, is that something that you always knew? Like, I just want to do this on my own steam or where did that come from?
Margot Del Rey[11:51] I think because of yoga, because it's not what my mother and sister had done. My mom had two c-section, very traumatic. My sister went to the hospital at the epidural. She said she pushed her baby very fast and it went okay. But in France, or at least in my family, but like in France, I feel we don't really talk about birth. Like I've never known how my sister birthed her babies before being pregnant myself.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:31] I'm not sure we talk about it much here either, but I think most people's exposure to birth for the first time is when they give birth or what they see in TV, movies and newspaper headlines, which is not the best education. So you want an unmedicated birth. You're doing yoga throughout your pregnancy. You want to do it at a hospital with a medical doctor?
Margot Del Rey[12:52] Yeah. Yeah. I want a medical doctor. I want to do it at a hospital. I don't have any family here. And my mom is pretty stressed and I want to feel the safest I can be. So for me at that time, the hospital seems safe.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:12] Okay. So how did you prepare for that?
Margot Del Rey[13:16] I did yoga. I went to my doula classes and that's pretty much it. I read like probably one book and now I feel like, you know, I didn't really prepare, so it didn't go that way.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:36] Um, how did it actually go down?
Margot Del Rey[13:38] So my 40th week, I been told, I mean, my entire pregnancy, I've been told that my baby was big and that, you know, this might be a problem for birth and on my 40th week, like baby's showing a really big and I've been told I was pretty small and I had a lot of water so that baby was floating around and that, you know, he wasn't engaged and there was like very low chances that I could give birth vaginally and they suggest that I get induced at week 41 or that I can come in tomorrow for like schedule C section. And so I come back home with that information and this is at week 40.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:34] You make 40. So you get to 40 weeks, the baby's not dropping or engaging your fluids on the higher side, the baby's on the bigger side. So for just those reasons, there's no signs of distress or anything. Just those reasons like we got two options for you, wait up to another week and get induced or just.
Margot Del Rey[14:52] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:53] Get induced in another week or just give birth tomorrow through surgery. Okay. Well, that's an interesting lot of choices. How did you process that information and what did you decide to do?
Margot Del Rey[15:05] So it was like, I didn't expect that at all. And I called my mom to have her thoughts and she said, you know, like she was induced twice and both indictions led to C-sections that were very traumatic and she said, please, please take the C-section.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[15:31] Oh, she was worried about you getting induced.
Margot Del Rey[15:34] Yeah. She was worried about me getting induced and me being here. Across the ocean and having an emergency cesarean birth. Yeah. And so her fear goes right through me and I take it as my own and I'm calling my doula and I'm like, okay, I guess we're having a baby tomorrow. And from the moment I chose that, like it was an exciting time. It was Halloween night. We put candy out. We went to bed early. I shaved my legs. I did my hair. Like it was fun. Like I was happy to go to the hospital at 4 a.m. to get that surgery, but things went completely differently. My baby wasn't ready at all.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:25] Wasn't ready. I mean, you were just doing the cesarean, right? So what do you mean the baby wasn't ready?
Margot Del Rey[16:31] So first I did the surgery and I started like shaking extremely bad.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:39] During the surgery while you're on the table. Open.
Margot Del Rey[16:43] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:45] I had both arms strapped by choice or was it, would they just do that?
Margot Del Rey[16:50] No, it was just what it was. And I was extremely cold and my body was just feeling wrong. And I completely dissociated at that time. I didn't know, but this, I got sexual abuse. Like a lot of years ago, and this brought everything back.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[17:14] I'm so sorry.
Margot Del Rey[17:15] Thank you. And my husband was scared. He was like seeing me shaking, asking if it was normal. They were telling him everything was normal and then baby comes out. He cries right away. So I kind of feel a relief, but then there is no baby on me. So it's such a weird feeling. Like I know my baby's here, but I don't know where he is. And suddenly my husband like leave my side and goes with baby. And I'm here by myself, like nobody tells me anything. And it might have been like a few minutes, but it feels very long. And then they bring baby. And when baby's on me, I feel great until they take me to the recovery room. And I have my baby on me and I feel shaky and I feel very weak and my
[18:16] vision gets blurry and I feel cold. And I tell my husband, I feel like I'm leaving my body. So a nurse hear me talk and she's like, you know, coming to me and like seeing I'm very pale and she's pressing on my belly. And there is a huge clot. And within 10 seconds, there is four other nurses that come in and the doctor and they try to remove the clot and I'm hemorrhaging in this recovery room and I feel every single thing. It's very painful. And they give me like a drug that makes me so, so high. Like I can still feel every single thing, but I'm just out of it. So it's a lot of dissociation and at the same time, they take my baby away and my husband leaves and there is just me and the doctors in the room.
[19:23] I don't know where my baby and my husband is. I don't know what happens next. What I know is that I wake up in a room by myself with no baby, no husband, no doctor. And so I call someone and someone comes and she says that my baby is at the nursery and I say that I don't want my baby in the nursery that I want my baby with me, like what my baby is doing in the nursery. And then my husband comes right through the door and he says there's something wrong with our baby, but like, I don't understand, you know, it's like, I gave birth to this baby, but I don't know where it is. I don't even like remember his face. Like it's such a weird feeling. And then they bring him back and I try to breastfeed and he's all red
[20:19] and breathing very weird and I've never like held a newborn that young before. But I feel that something is wrong. So we called a nurse and that's when they take him and they take him to the NICU. He can't breathe by himself. So he's just plugged in machines and I'm on the other floor just trying to pump, but I have lost a lot of blood and so I can keep up with what he needs to eat because he is actually a big baby.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[20:59] Um, first of all, sometimes a cesarean goes just fine. And we do have an episode of our podcast, number 48 on the gentle cesarean, sort of how to have the best cesarean birth and what informed cesarean birth and try to make the best experience out of it. But sometimes it goes just fine. Yours did not. And I wonder if when you had to make that decision, you even really knew all the things, you know, pros and cons of the two choices in front of you. And it makes perfect sense that without that information and with the fear from your mom, this would be the choice you make, but it sounds like, and I'm not even sure. I don't know if you want to get into it, but I'm not even sure
[21:37] how the cesarean, was it because you gave up so much control that it brought back haunts from your sexual abuse in the past? Or, I mean, cause I guess in some ways you would expect that more to be with a vaginal birth.
Margot Del Rey[21:51] So what happened to me years ago was that I had my boyfriend come through my window. It was my boyfriend that sexually abused me and that night was very cold and he abused me and then he left and he left the window open. So I was left shaking all night. And I guess that the feeling of being cold and being so shaky and shocked brought everything back in my body. And that's something I forgot. I did write about it during those years I was writing and I had no idea I was writing about myself until this birth.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[22:44] Wow. So that does make sense. It sounds really scary and crummy and I'm so sorry that happened to you, both with your boyfriend and then as, you know, coming back to you during your cesarean birth was supposed to be like the sort of most dramatically happy time in life. And all the complications that followed, you know, I think postpartum is generally a rocky period to begin with. And with all the things you had going on, even a more challenging time, more radical transition, and you're like the nicest, kindest, sweetest person. You should have the exact opposite experience. I'm really sorry. It didn't go well for you.
Margot Del Rey[23:20] Thank you.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:23] I can only imagine that this experience has contributed to the work that you do now.
Margot Del Rey[23:30] Yeah, it did. It really did. Like he left me really raw. And when I came back home, it was just us. I mean, we came back home seven days after everything. My son came back home one day after us, and it was a happy day when we were all at home, just the three of us, but we didn't have any support. My parents came for two weeks after birth and they were helping, but it was just like lots of trauma and we didn't know what we were doing. And I was exhausting and I was depleted and I felt like this shouldn't be like that for anyone.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[24:16] So I wonder in your own situation, how did you start to pull out of that, recover from that, and then how did that lead to what you do now to help other people?
Margot Del Rey[24:27] So about four months after the birth, I started going back to teaching yoga just because I wanted community and I didn't have childcare. My friends didn't have children at that time. They were still partying, drinking and all the things. So I would come to class with my son in the carrier and teach classes with him. And after maybe just a month of going back to teaching, I felt that moms needed more and I needed more. I needed more intimate space and just more discussion, not only movement. So I took the class to my apartment in Mar Vista and I made it a two hours class that was one hour yoga and one hour circle where we could discuss the challenges
[25:31] and the wins of being young mothers. And after probably a couple of weeks, like they kind of started texting me with questions about feeding and, you know, is it normal that my baby is doing this? Is it normal that I'm feeling like that? And I didn't know anything. I mean, I was just a mom like them. So I started researching and finding resources for them. And I loved it. I loved finding solution or like tricks that, you know, could make people feel better. And I reached out to my doula and I asked her if she could recommend a doula training. And so that's when I started training to become a doula and a postpartum doula.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[26:23] And somewhere along the line, you added more services.
Margot Del Rey[26:29] Yeah, yeah, I added more. Like every time I felt like I was missing something, I went back to school or I went back to another training. I'm very curious and I love knowing more things and I love supporting people. So it's after the birth of my daughter that I felt I really needed more. And that I learned lactation and that I learned more about Ayurveda and bodywork. And I'm going back to school next year to become a CMT. So it's another layer.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[27:05] Oh wow, incredible. I would like to talk about your second birth. And, you know, obviously there are some things you learned after the first one, both for you and even making a profession out of it. I'm curious, given the opportunity to do it again, what you did differently. Let's take a little break and we'll be right back. Welcome back to the podcast. We're talking to Marco Del Rey. And after a very challenging, somewhat elective, cesarean birth with the first baby and a challenging birth experience, a challenging postpartum experience, you really sought out resources for yourself and then started to build up this arsenal of a tool belt of things that you can use to help people
[27:57] have better transitions around childbirth. As I mentioned, you now offer a Bianca Here Are Your Vedic Bada work at our practice. I've never had a Bianca, but I've had the light of spending 25 minutes with you now and again and just being around you is therapeutic. So I'm sure a Bianca is amazing in general, but I think the practitioner makes a big difference. And A, I see people come out of the room after your hour long treatment and they look like they just walked out of the womb. And people tell me they're like in a cloud for two hours afterwards, a heavenly little cloud, just feeling great physically, spiritually, and mentally. So it's a real gift what you do.
[28:40] Before the break, we mentioned that you now have another baby. So was the second pregnancy a surprise as well?
Margot Del Rey[28:47] It was not. I thought I only wanted one child for four years and I woke up one morning and I wanted another one. And we were aligned on that one with my husband. So we tried and we got pregnant and I learned I was pregnant on a trip in Paris by myself with my son and I felt terrible. I felt like this baby wasn't supposed to be here. It was very, very weird. And 10 weeks after that, I had a miscarriage.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[29:23] Oh, I'm so sorry.
Margot Del Rey[29:25] So it was really painful, but before that, I learned so much about postpartum care that when I had that miscarriage, I treated myself as I was postpartum. And I took two weeks off of everything and I took care of myself like I never did before.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[29:49] Wow, what kind of things?
Margot Del Rey[29:51] I cooked for myself. I nourished myself. I called my friends. They dropped foods. They took care of my son. I did a bionga. I did Reiki. I did a lot of therapy, a lot of meditation and I slept a lot. And after those two weeks, I felt like I was healed. I felt this was my postpartum from my first birth and that's what I needed to be able to. Create that second human.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[30:25] Sort of did a redo on postpartum. Do you know what changed when you woke up one day and felt like I'm ready for another baby?
Margot Del Rey[30:35] I have no idea. I do remember like really waking up that day and be like, I feel her and I knew she was her and I knew her name and it was very strange. And I sat down with my husband. I was like, I want another baby like today. And yeah, it was very, very strange. Like I felt her.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[31:02] After the postpartum done right, I guess, were you ready to try again?
Margot Del Rey[31:08] Yes. And we got pregnant in two cycles and that time it felt wonderful. It felt right. I was very nauseous but happy and it was a great pregnancy. And for some reason, I went with the same doctor that I had the cessation with. But I had a different doula and she was asking a lot of questions and so she asked me like, why do you feel you need to go with that same doctor? And I guess I liked the practice. I liked the material they had there and like, you know, I trusted that it was kind of like they would see if something was wrong with the baby. So that was reassuring to me. But my doula suggested to do co-care with midwives and at that point, I really felt like
[32:14] I needed to have all the people I could around me so I could get the V back I wanted.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:23] Okay. So was the plan when you say co-care meaning midwives and obstetrician?
Margot Del Rey[32:29] Yes.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:29] The same obstetrician?
Margot Del Rey[32:31] The same one, yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:32] Okay. Then was the plan to deliver at home or at the hospital or to just wait and see and have your bases covered because you had both types of provider?
Margot Del Rey[32:40] At the hospital. But I was open to change my mind.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:46] Okay. How did that labor start?
Margot Del Rey[32:50] So at 35 weeks, I stopped seeing my OB.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:55] Oh, so you did change your mind?
Margot Del Rey[32:57] I did change my mind.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:58] Okay. How did that labor start?
Margot Del Rey[33:01] So my water broke. In the middle of the night, I was 38 weeks. Okay. Already different. Yeah. So different. And so from 35 weeks to 38 weeks, we were now planning a home birth. Like we were sure. Not a lot of time. Okay. A lot of change. Yeah. And so my water broke in the middle of the night. I'm so happy, like insanely happy, like laughing and crying. And I text my doula and she's like, go back to sleep, you know, put a diaper on, go back to sleep. But it's like the rush of endorphins from just like, you know, being happy. And like, I couldn't wait to just like have that birth. I couldn't go back to sleep. I tried and my husband-
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[33:53] I could see how that would be challenging.
Margot Del Rey[33:55] Yeah. But my husband was like, yeah, go back to sleep, you know, listen to her. So I go back to sleep. I have some contractions, but nothing too painful or too uncomfortable. And then I wake up in the morning and no more contractions.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:16] Oh, they're gone.
Margot Del Rey[34:18] They're gone. And so I'm not happy anymore. And so I call my midwives, my doula and they're like, okay, you know, do some yoga, go on a hike, nourish yourself, hydrate. So that's what I do. I go on a hike and I send pictures to my mom who is freaking out. She's like, my daughter just like her water broke and she's hiking in Topanga. Like that doesn't seem safe, but I'm very happy and I'm feeling great. As I walk, contraction comes back. They're not uncomfortable. They're not painful. And then it's night again. And I go back to sleep. And in the middle of the night, I'm woken up by more contractions and they're stronger. They're stronger. They kind of have a rhythm.
[35:15] And so we call our doula and she said, as long as you're still in the bed and still talking to me, you go back to sleep. So just deep breath and try to go back to sleep. So I do that and it's a little more challenging than the previous night. And when I wake up, it's stopped again. And I don't accept that it's the daytime. I wear my eye mask and I stay in my bedroom and I try to walk and do yoga and try to trick myself. But my midwives come up to my house and they say, okay, it's been 48 hours since your water has broken now and you are contracting, but it's not regular. Let's take your temperature. And I have a little temperature, so it's not high,
[36:22] but I'm a little too warm for what they would like me to be.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[36:26] Outside the comfort zone.
Margot Del Rey[36:28] Yeah. So they call my backup OB who is not the previous OB but who's this incredible rock star OB that I love. And she says, you know what? Just come to the hospital and I promise you we'll try to have you have a home birth in the hospital. And I feel some grief. I also feel like at that point my son has been at a friend for two days and I want to see him as quick as I can. So I do go to the hospital and when I enter the labor and delivery floor at the hospital, I feel like Beyonce. They're not even asking for anything. They're like, here's your room. Just go in. We know you don't want the epidural. We know you don't want to be disturbed. So just do yourself.
[37:31] Like, do whatever you need to do. Like, you know, we won't interrupt you. And they start me on a little bit of pitocin. That was the deal. Just to get things to pick up.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[37:47] Because your water has been broken. You're spiking a little fever. You know, there is some sort of a clock, I guess, ticking.
Margot Del Rey[37:54] Yes, a little bit. So I get started on a little bit of pitocin and my body is responding so well. So I'm contracting. I have a rhythm. It gets more intense. It's kind of a party in there. Like I'm dancing and music is loud and it's just like all I dreamt of. Except I'm not at home, but I'm still very happy. And things progress quite fast. And we arrived at the hospital at probably 1 p.m. And around midnight, I feel like contractions are really, really strong. And I feel like I think what is transitioning. And they bring the doctor in and they're checking me and I'm two centimeters.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[38:52] Oh no, oh my, okay.
Margot Del Rey[38:55] So I tell my husband, I need the epidural. And he's like, are you sure? And I'm like, if I tell you I need it, like, yes, I am sure. I know I want a V-back and I need to save energy. You know, it's been three days. So they give me the epidural. I want the lowest amount they can give me. And I go in bed and I sleep. And I wake up at 6 a.m. I call my mom because she hasn't had any news for like almost three days. And while I'm on the phone, contractions start to really get stronger and I feel the urge to push.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[39:43] Oh wow, how much time had elapsed?
Margot Del Rey[39:46] It was probably, I think, four to six hours after the epidural. And so my husband is texting the midwives, the doula, the doctor, like, you know, bringing everybody back. And it's getting intense and I'm breathing through it and I'm really, really, really feeling that pressure. And when the doctor come in, she says she sees the head.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[40:13] Whoa, okay.
Margot Del Rey[40:15] So we are here and she's like, it's time to go. And my doula like doesn't even make it for the first push. Like she's running through the hospital door. And yeah, and in 30 minutes, my daughter comes out and she's not crying right away. She just like comes. And after some seconds, she just like cream very loud. And then chill. And I did it. And I felt like so complete. And the first thing I said was, whoa, I could do this six more times. Wow.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[40:57] Wow. I'm so happy for you. I know it wasn't all that recent, but still you can feel the energy coming out of you. And still I would say congratulations.
Margot Del Rey[41:07] Thank you.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[41:07] I know that's your vision and you put a lot of work into it. And also it just, you know, it must've been hard at points to keep your faith up as things were taking longer and longer. The clock was ticking. Fever started. You weren't progressing.
Margot Del Rey[41:24] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[41:24] I love that you knew that you needed and wanted an epidural at the time and got it with confidence knowing that was the right move for you. And seemingly did the trick for you.
Margot Del Rey[41:35] Yeah. I felt it was about surrendering and feeling what was best in the moment and not being scared of pivoting if that's what was needed.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[41:45] How was your postpartum experience after that birth?
Margot Del Rey[41:48] It was incredible. I had an amazing postpartum doula who was my midwife. So she knew me and she's a friend and it was so dreamy. And my friend put together a meal train. I didn't have to cook for six weeks and my parents came and helped. It was, I felt held. I healed very quickly. Breastfeeding went so well and my son was an amazing big brother like since the beginning. So yeah, it was just like everything I dreamt of.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[42:29] That's so beautiful. I'm so happy for you. Before we wrap up, so now at this moment you're studying massage therapy too. At this moment you offer lactation consulting.
Margot Del Rey[42:41] Yes.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[42:42] You're an Ayurvedic postpartum doula.
Margot Del Rey[42:45] Yes.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[42:45] Does that include cooking?
Margot Del Rey[42:47] It does include cooking.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[42:49] Sign me up.
Margot Del Rey[42:50] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[42:51] And then also you do Ayurvedic bodywork, Abhyanga. For someone who's in Los Angeles in an earshot, can you describe the Abhyanga session?
Margot Del Rey[43:01] Of course. So in home or in office, it's a warm oil ointment. So I use sesame oil and castor oil and it's a full body experience. It's choreographed sequence strokes. So it's always the same choreography for every single body. I don't assess. I just trust the choreography and the oil and it's not deep like a massage. I don't go into deep tissue. I just stay in the surface so your nervous system can reset and it's an hour long and usually after the hour like when you get up, you do really feel like your nervous system got to reset. You feel grounded and replenished. It's such a magical work that I discovered during my post-partum healing and I felt it's the most powerful thing
[44:08] that you could do post-partum.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[44:11] And that's exactly how people are describing it after your session. Sounds really, really cool. Yeah, like you're working on the body, but it's not about releasing necessarily the muscles and the bones. So it's somehow rebalancing the mind, body and spirit. And also because you've been doing it for people before birth, post-partum, during the fertility journeys. I've heard a couple of people sort of express it like this that they're after you work on them, they have a sort of a clearer communication with their inner voice and they're better able to trust their bodies and the guidance from inside instead of all the noise on the outside.
Margot Del Rey[44:49] Yeah, exactly. It's about coming home to your body. So it's about like just resetting everything and kind of shutting down the outside noises so you can really feel like you're home and in peace in your body.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[45:07] Margot, thank you so much for sharing and for the work that you do. Where can we find you online?
Margot Del Rey[45:13] So I'm with.sisterhood on Instagram and my website is withsisterhood.com
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[45:21] Incredible. Thank you for joining me in at home. Thanks for listening to the Informed Pregnancy podcast. For more pregnancy and parenting information just like this, visit us online at informedpregnancy.com
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Los Angeles based actor, singer, and mom of two Jenna Pastuszek discusses her experience with birth, motherhood, rehearsals, and what “break a leg” means to her.
Informed Pregnancy Media and Mahmee present an all new podcast! One Way or a Mother is a new narrative podcast from Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC. Each season is an intimate story of one woman, one pregnancy, and all of the preparations, emotions, and personal history leading up to the birth. Episodes feature the expectant mother along with her family, doctors, and birth work team.
AI-generated transcript with speaker labels — may contain errors, especially names and medical terms. Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC appears in blue; Jenna Pastuszek in orange.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:00] My guest today is a returning friend of the podcast of Los Angeles-based actor, singer, and mom of two who recently welcomed her second baby. Her first birth came with some unexpected twists, and this time she set out on a very different path. Between rehearsals, performances, and parenting a toddler, she was determined to write her own sequel. One full of intention, courage, and maybe just a little drama. You know, in showbiz they say break a leg, but you're not actually supposed to do it, especially in your third trimester. I'm pregnancy-focused chiropractor, Dr. Elliott Berlin, and you're listening to the Informed Pregnancy Podcast. Jenna Pasta-Zach, welcome back to the podcast.
Jenna Pastuszek[0:53] What an intro. Thank you so much.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:54] My pleasure. I was up all night working on it. Me and chat GPT. I got to be honest. So none of that might be true, actually. It could all be just hallucinations. You might not even have any kids.
Jenna Pastuszek[1:07] I might not. Anyway, yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:09] So here we are. To find out the truth, you were on the podcast previously, and you wrote blogs for us that are hilarious, and then you had another baby. So why don't we recap what happened with the first one, and then we'll take it from there.
Jenna Pastuszek[1:24] Okay. The long and the short of it was I had difficulty getting pregnant with my first, my son. And so I had to do time dinner course to make that happen. Worked with Dr. Meredith
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:37] Brower. How was that on your sex life? Too soon?
Jenna Pastuszek[1:41] Yeah. The thought of having sex three days in a row, like you're supposed to, I was like, I can't do that. That's way too much for me. So we did two.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:55] Okay. Two out of three ain't bad? Two out of three ain't bad, as I said. Did it work?
Jenna Pastuszek[1:59] Sure did. I didn't even tell my husband that we were doing it twice on purpose, because I couldn't handle the pressure of him knowing.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[2:06] I feel like it's usually the other way.
Jenna Pastuszek[2:09] I know. I know. He thought he was getting lucky. He was like, something's wrong with you. Why do you want to have sex with me two nights in a row? Twice in the same month. Anyway, so we did time dinner course. And we both got lucky because there was a child. How about that? Then my baby was breeched, as you know, pretty much the entire pregnancy. And we did an ECV. That didn't work. I did turning babies. That didn't work. We did acupuncture. I did Cairo with you, obviously. So there I was with my scheduled C-section looming a few days away. And I was swimming laps and trying to do everything, lying upside down on ironing boards. And at the last minute, my water broke.
[2:51] And I remember going to the bathroom and thinking to myself, like, wow, am I just in the point of pregnancy where I'm just peeing my pants now? Is this it? And then my husband was like, why do you keep getting up to go to the bathroom? Like, what's wrong? And I was like, I think my water broke. And he's like, okay. And I was like, so what do I do? He's like, I think you call your doctor and we go to the hospital. I was like, right. So we went to the hospital. We had an emergency C-section and my son was born. And then we had all sorts of trouble with an upper lip and a tongue tie. And some serious latching issues and also some undersupply milk issues.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:32] So grand old postpartum?
Jenna Pastuszek[3:34] Yeah, grand old postpartum. I mean, because postpartum is not easy when none of those things happen, when everything just goes smooth.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:41] Does it ever just go smooth?
Jenna Pastuszek[3:43] I mean, I think it's smoother than that. I just feel like what they don't tell you and what they should tell you is that something is going to go wrong somewhere. Whether it's you have trouble getting pregnant, whether it's you have a difficult labor, whether it's you have breastfeeding issues. Like, you know, something is going to go wrong and you should just know that.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[4:06] Well, yes, that is true. I mean, there's nothing is expected to go according to plan, meaning there's always the expectation that things can go off script. But you do live theater.
Jenna Pastuszek[4:17] Yeah, that's showbiz, baby. So I just kind of, you know, roll with it.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[4:20] Roll with it. But if you could look at that whole first experience and look back at it and say, OK, we're going to do another run of this show. Let's make these edits. What would you have done differently?
Jenna Pastuszek[4:31] Decent question. I truly don't think any of it. I wouldn't have done any of it differently, especially with my son being breech. I mean, there's really nothing that I could do about that. And after he was born, the doctor said, you know, I looked around in there and thought to myself, like, why was he breech? And I was like, no, no, no. After meeting him one day, I know that he was just breech because he felt like it. That is just his personality. And so who does he get that from? No idea. I'm not sure. He was actually just a chef for Halloween and it was 92 degrees outside and he was running around in his full chef costume, refusing to take it off because he was committed to the bit.
[5:13] No idea where he gets it from. No idea. But yeah, I mean, going through that and having him be breech and having to make amends with my birth plan that I had wanted to do and really like the feelings that I was having around entering motherhood, having a c-section. I am actually so glad that I had to learn those lessons because it really taught me an important lesson that you learn as a parent, which is you don't have all of the control anymore. And there are now two people who are involved in this relationship. And so that entire experience just really helped me release and trust and accept that there's going to be a plan B sometimes that you might not have wanted, you know,
[5:55] but you have to just accept it and then deal with it.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:59] How did you get through the postpartum hurdles?
Jenna Pastuszek[6:02] It takes a village, as Hillary Clinton said. So I'm just so grateful for all of the people that I've met who are on my life team, but also were strong parts of my postpartum team. So my lactation consultant, obviously you.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[6:22] Yeah, obviously.
Jenna Pastuszek[6:24] You think you just crack backs? I also crack jokes. I was going to be nicer than that, but you know what? Yeah, you just crack backs, crack jokes, that's it. Maybe heal other parts of our souls that we don't know or even are in need of cracking, you know?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[6:39] Please go on.
Jenna Pastuszek[6:40] No, now I've been nice to you once, so we need to move on. So yeah, that was my first kid.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[6:47] Yeah, okay. So I mean, did you know right away, like maybe I'll do this again? Or was that iffy?
Jenna Pastuszek[6:54] It was a little iffy. I thought to myself, wow, like no one can get cooler than this guy. I just love my kid. And I remember driving home from the hospital and thinking to myself, like, how amazing is it that I just met this human two days ago, and yet I would hurl myself in front of a bus. The grenade for you. Yeah, and so I, thanks, Bruno Mars. I have a younger brother who's three years younger than me. My husband has a younger brother. My mom is one of five. My dad was one of three. And so I did always know that I wanted a sibling relationship to be part of my son's experience. But I also was, you know, especially I think as an actor, one of the hardest parts about being pregnant is that
[7:39] you are not supposed to be pregnant for as long as possible. Then suddenly you are showing. And so there's nothing that anyone can do about the fact that you're pregnant except try to hide it if it's necessary to be hidden until you then have the baby. And then you're expected to be immediately back into performance shape physically and also mentally immediately, as if you never were pregnant at all.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:08] Right.
Jenna Pastuszek[8:10] Yeah, and so having gone through that with my son, I was apprehensive about doing it again because I thought, you know, well, what if I can't get back to, you know, my physical shape after my second kid? Or, you know, what if I choose the wrong time to try to get pregnant again? And all of that. And ultimately, as with the entire pregnancy journey, like, again, going back to the control, you have no control over any of this. So it took us six months to get pregnant again. We had to do a time dinner course again with Dr. Brower. Well, not with Dr. Brower.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:47] Well, she had just guided the.
Jenna Pastuszek[8:49] It's her recommendation.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:51] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. One of my favorite things is when your kid grows up and listens to the fact that you had to have sex twice in a row to create him, you know, when he's listening to the archives. So you did make the decision after all that thought, let's do this again. Let's have another one.
Jenna Pastuszek[9:11] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:11] And then it didn't come easy. All right. Let's take a little break. When we come back, we'll find out how you got another one going, what the second pregnancy and birth was like. We'll be right back.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:31] Welcome back. We're having time segments here with Jenna Pastuzek. Time segments on time dinner course with Jenna Pastuzek. Yeah. This is our second segment right in a row, and it's really feeling like a lot of pressure on me. So there's that. So the time intercourse didn't work though, the second time.
Jenna Pastuszek[9:49] No. It turns out that we needed to adjust the medication. I had to change medications. I had to change dosages. And actually, I guess it did work the first time we did it again with Dr. Brower. However, I had a chemical pregnancy. So I guess I was about, I don't really know actually how many weeks, maybe six.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:08] Yeah, five or six weeks, and you get a positive pregnancy test.
Jenna Pastuszek[10:12] Yeah. Actually, I didn't even have that. I just had copious amounts of blood. I was like, this doesn't look or good, feel right, right? And then they were like, oh, confirmed you were pregnant. So the positive about that was that I could get pregnant, and the negative about that was that it was not viable. So yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:31] So where did you go from there? So then you're adjusting all the medications?
Jenna Pastuszek[10:35] Then we adjusted all the medications, and this is also, I was doing two shows at once. I was doing two new musicals at the same time, and one in LA, and then one that was traveling. So we were traveling to Philadelphia. So in and amidst all of that travel and scheduling, I was also trying to figure out when to do this fertility round again. So we did it when I got back, and it actually happened to be basically the same timing that I did with my son. So my daughter is, she's three years and two weeks younger than my son. So I was basically pregnant at the exact same time.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:18] Same pattern, yeah. Yeah. We have that with our kids. They're June 1st, June 7th, June 10th, and April 30th of 2004, 6th, 8th, and 10th.
Jenna Pastuszek[11:26] Wait, really?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:27] Yeah. So what was happening nine months before June? Rosh Hashanah. The Appletini. When I was done, I was like- Happy New Year.
Jenna Pastuszek[11:36] Happy New Year. Baby, no more Appletini for us.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:39] Well, maybe actually you were atoning.
Jenna Pastuszek[11:43] I was 10 days later in Yom Kippur.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:45] Yeah, somewhere in between the joy and the atone. Yeah. So you get knocked up again. Now, considering your first experience, I guess you have two choices. So you just do a repeat C-section or aim for a vaginal birth after cesarean. Did you have a preference and why?
Jenna Pastuszek[12:05] Well, first of all, I had to switch OB-GYNs because my previous OB-GYN went out of network. But the last thing that she said to me was, because I said, if I want to have another kid, what is the protocol here? And she said, just so you know, I will let you go for a vaginal birth if you want, but I won't induce you. And so you'll need to go into labor spontaneously. So I was so upset that I didn't get to have a vaginal birth the first time that I was like, well, if I'm allowed to try for it, why wouldn't I? And also I'm a curious person and I like to learn it myself. So if people, I heard all the time, oh, C-section recovery is easier, or oh, no, vaginal birth is easier or whatever.
[12:54] I was like, well, let me be the judge of that. I am going to try to have both if I can.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:59] So yeah, you'd like to experience all the flavors and then write a little guide about which ones are better.
Jenna Pastuszek[13:05] Exactly.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:05] In Europe, right? Because a lot of people after they have a cesarean birth say, I already been there, done that, let me just do what I know. Some people are like, I already have like whatever the trauma is there, the wound, so why ruin two pieces of apparatus? This is not me speaking. This is what people tell me. Just different ideologies on how to go with it. But you wanted the vaginal birth experience.
Jenna Pastuszek[13:27] Yeah, you know, I wanted to like live on the edge a lot of people go for the C-section again, especially when they have a toddler at home because they're like, I can schedule this, I can have help, you know, all of that. And I thought about that. And I also again thought about what you just mentioned, which is like, well, this is the devil I know. So like, I already know this recovery. I know I survived it. I know it was fine. So like, I'm sure it would be fine again. But there's something in me that wants to make my life sometimes as hard as possible. I just was like, well, I don't know. I should just go for it. But the cool thing the second time was
[14:08] that I went into it with this mentality that, you know what, if I have to have a C-section, it's fine because I've already had it. So I'm not going to have a meltdown about not getting to give birth the way that I want to because I recognize that this is sort of out of my control and I'm going to just have to go with it.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:27] That's cool. That takes some pressure off.
Jenna Pastuszek[14:29] Yeah. And so actually at my 20-week appointment, the baby was breached. And at that point, that was actually when I talked to you. And I came in for a session and I said, oh, you know, well, this baby's breached too. And then you suggested, you were like, maybe we should do some energy healing work because, you know, have you ever considered that you might be holding on to something that perhaps is, I don't know, allowing the baby to hold on to something too and like just kind of stay in this position. And the minute that you said that, I was like, oh, I'm trying to be in control again. Like, who cares? Who cares? Like, if the baby wants to flip, great.
[15:09] If they don't, then whatever. I need to just get out of the way of this. And then right after that appointment, she flipped and she stayed head down for the rest of the time, which was really, really crazy.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[15:20] It was a cool energy session too. Like you really got into a zone where you were open energy sharing and your body, I felt your nervous system. And that's what I go for, the nervous system to kind of reboot, to kind of shut down for a little bit and come back online in just a much more calm, relaxed and functional way. Not like the feeling like you're being chased by a tiger, but on an energetic level, sometimes you are holding on to something that makes you sort of guard the baby and not want to let go. And so it was cool that the baby turned after that and then you're on your path to a potential VBAC.
Jenna Pastuszek[15:58] Yeah. And so my new provider, when I was searching for providers, I wanted someone who had a similar philosophy to my old OBGYN, who would let me go for a VBAC if that's what I wanted to do, who would also schedule a C-section if that's what I wanted to do. So I found her in Dr. Jamie Tempko at Cedars and I loved working with her and I loved working with all the women at the practice. And as you mentioned in my intro, it turns out at around 32 weeks, and maybe we'll get to this, I broke my leg, but it wasn't discovered until about 36 weeks. And so once my OB actually ordered my x-ray and was the one to call me and tell me that I had a broken leg,
[16:47] at that point, she was like, you can definitely go for a VBAC if you want. Because if I ever questioned your pain tolerance, you've been walking around
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:54] with a broken leg for six weeks. Yeah, you were literally walking on it. And you came in and we looked at your leg and we're like, wow, that's painful. Let's see if we can get some of the pain down, some of the swelling down, use laser on it. But it was definitely an uncommon pregnancy symptom to have pain in that area and also persistent not getting better.
Jenna Pastuszek[17:15] Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[17:16] And you have no idea how you broke it, right?
Jenna Pastuszek[17:19] Well, I think that in June I was doing, so I was in the start of my third trimester, I was doing a show at the Kirk Douglas in Culver City. I was also flying back to the East Coast every week in June to do concerts on my nights off of the other play. So I was doing a lot of traveling. And also when I'm pregnant, I get horrible calf cramps. Like calf spasms, they're terrible. And so one day I remember that I woke up and I was having such a bad spasm that I woke up and I slammed my foot against the floor, like on the side of the bed to kind of like make the pain stop. And after that, I remember thinking like, wow, did a calf spasm like strain another muscle in my leg?
[18:13] My leg is killing me. It hurts so bad. And then I actually went and I performed one of my Judy Garland concerts. And I remember after the show, I was sleeping over at my music director's house and we were on the couch eating ice cream and he looked at my ankle and he was like, that is double the size of your other foot. And I was like, is it? It hurts. And he was like, yeah, that looks horrible. And so I think that it was some sort of connection to these calf cramps that I was having.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[18:46] Well, I mean, maybe when you slammed your foot on the ground.
Jenna Pastuszek[18:48] Yeah, maybe that. And then danced on it. I had the force to break my own leg or dance on it or whatever. But you know, no to the listeners. I was about to say no to the reader, but no to the listeners out there. Put three corks underneath your pillow if you have calf cramps and they will go away. Old wine tail, three corks.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:09] Old wine tail. Does it matter what bottle?
Jenna Pastuszek[19:12] No.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:13] Any three corks?
Jenna Pastuszek[19:14] Yep. Preferably a drunk bottle. That has been drank.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:21] Well, you know, listeners, readers, try that out at home and send us some feedback and let us know how that works for you. But I would also recommend not slamming your foot into the floor, even if you have a calf cramp.
Jenna Pastuszek[19:35] It's the worst agony. I think that and nosebleeds are the two pregnancy symptoms that I was like, really? These like hair in weird places or like dark areolas. I mean, I can understand those kinds of things, but like nosebleeds, why?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:54] Why do we have to add that on? And the heart attack in the leg or calf cramp. So you're walking around hobbling with like a brace on your leg.
Jenna Pastuszek[20:02] I'm hobbling around like a peg leg. Yeah, I don't even get a boot. I'm just dragging my sorry right leg behind me and complaining to every person I know about how much my leg hurts. And everyone is looking at me and being like, well, you know, small in ankles. That's just like part of pregnancy. Sure. You know, you're retaining fluid. I'm sure that that'll go away after you deliver. And I was like, but I could be pregnant for another two months. Like this can't be right, but I guess it is.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[20:35] Okay. So swollen ankles, I mean broken leg, broken leg. So this doctor that you switched to says if you want to go for a VBAC now that your head down, no problem.
Jenna Pastuszek[20:49] Well, so she orders an x-ray because after a few visits of me saying, you know, she says, do you have any questions about anything? I say, yeah, my leg really hurts. And she's like, okay, you know what? We can order an x-ray. It's not going to show anything, but let's just go for it. And I said, all right. So we ordered the x-ray and lo and behold, it shows a non-displaced fibular fracture.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:14] The fibular is that smaller bone on the leg, the outer bone. And non-displaced meaning there's a crack in it, but it's not like two ends came apart.
Jenna Pastuszek[21:24] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:24] So it's kind of, I guess, wouldn't you say like the best kind of break you can have? It's a clean break. It's going to heal well. Yeah.
Jenna Pastuszek[21:32] So I go to the orthopedic surgeon. She looks at it and she says, well, I guess you can put this boot on and keep your foot in the boot for the rest of your pregnancy and then come back the beginning of September after you've delivered. And I said, all right. So I walk out of the office limping out in my boot and I'm like, okay, bye everybody. I'm going to go deliver a baby in this boot. And they're all like, wait, wait, you know, you could take it off when you're pushing. And I was like, that was a joke. I know. Yeah, I got it. So at that point, my OB was like, okay, if you want to go for a VBAC, you can go for a VBAC. And I was like, great. Have I proven now that I have
[22:15] the pain tolerance of my Ukrainian people?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[22:18] Yes, you do.
Jenna Pastuszek[22:19] So the plan was that if I did not go into labor, I would be induced at 40 weeks and two days.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[22:31] So unlike your other doctor, this doctor was comfortable with a little induction despite the VBAC.
Jenna Pastuszek[22:36] Yeah, she wouldn't do the cervidrial, but she would do a pitocin drip. Her practice, they rotate. And so when she was on rotation, she said she would do it. And so I said, okay, great. Then she takes her insurance. How about it? And delivered at the hospital where Judy Garland's daughter Liza Minnelli was born and where Barbara Streisand has a heart center. So, you know, it's my kind of hospital.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[22:58] All your people.
Jenna Pastuszek[22:58] All my people. So I was still a little bit stressed because I didn't want to be induced. And also I had never been this pregnant before. Newsom was born at 39 weeks exactly. And so by this point, I was 39 and five, six. I can't remember. But I was like, this, I am over this. I don't want to be pregnant anymore. Middle of August, my toddler has three weeks off from daycare. I am in hell.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:34] I mean, this puts me into a place of total suspense as to what's going to happen next. Because you don't want to be induced. You don't want to have a C-section. But you're over it. I can't do curb walking because I have a broken leg. I mean, you're essentially curb walking wherever you go because you have your built-in curb on your right leg. So I guess we should take a break and come back and find out how it all went down. We'll be right back with the rest of the story. Welcome back. We're talking to Jenna Pasek. And in our story, she is finally pregnant with her second baby. And the baby is head down. And she broke her leg because she had a calf cramp
[24:22] and she just slammed her leg into the ground. That's likely how it happened. And then she's walking around in a boot and she's not in labor. And she's as pregnant as she's ever been at 39 weeks and five days or so. It's hot as heck. And she's just over it. Some people at that point are just like, induce me. Some people are just like, screw it. I'll just have the C-section. And some people are Ukrainian. So what did you do?
Jenna Pastuszek[24:48] So I drank the courts of the raspberry tea and I did all of the old wives witchy tale things. I came to see you like on the hour, every hour to get things going. I went back to my acupuncturist and was drinking the herbs and doing all of that kind of stuff. And then on us-
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[25:10] And at that point, is sex an option?
Jenna Pastuszek[25:12] Yes. And that was, I think, what popped me into labor the first time. So I told my husband, it's time. It sounds like music, like bring up the drama music. And so, we're trying all the things. And then on a Sunday night, I'm having dinner with my husband and my mom who had come to town to help. We'd put my toddler to bed and we're sitting at the dinner table and I suddenly feel like a headbutt in my groin area. And then I cough-
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[25:49] Who would do that to you?
Jenna Pastuszek[25:50] Yeah, I cough or I sneezed or something. And it was like the floodgates. And my water broke. And so I looked at them and I was like, I think my water just broke. And then I went to the bathroom and I was like, oh, it's definitely broken. And I literally went to myself, yes. And so I was like, guys, it's broken. We got to go. And so-
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[26:13] Like last time, what do you think we should do now, honey?
Jenna Pastuszek[26:16] Well, and luckily my OB this time was like, listen, if your water breaks, it's not an emergency. You don't need to rush. Like finish your meal, take a shower, whatever you got to do, and then come to the hospital. So we finished packing the car and telling my mom instructions for what to do with my son. And we drove to the hospital, took Cedars from Highland Park, which is where we live, could sometimes take two hours to get to. And it took 20 minutes because it was a Sunday night.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[26:48] Oh, nice. Good timing, Jenna.
Jenna Pastuszek[26:50] What was funny is that my husband's like, I'll drop you off at the security desk and then I'll go find parking and come inside. And so I go up to the security guy and he's like, hey, how can I help you? And I was like, hey, I'm in labor. And he's like, what? He's like, you're in a boot and holding a pillow. And I was like, yeah, I'm good. You're the most chill labor person I've ever seen. And I was like, yeah, just show me where to go. 6-4, like whatever. By the way, it's a feedback. So I go in and-
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[27:23] You didn't tell them?
Jenna Pastuszek[27:24] No, I didn't. But the nurses are like, okay, let's check if your water's broken. And I'm like, okay, you can check, but it's definitely broken. So they check and they're like, oh, confirmed is broken. And at that point, my OB had said, if you go into labor and you are going for the VBAC, I would recommend that you get the epidural just because if it's already in place, it will be easier if things go south and you got to have an emergency C-section. And I was like, fine, that's a fair trade. I will definitely do that to make everyone's life easier, no problem. So it's like 10 PM and the nurses are like, okay, well, if you're going to do the epidural,
[28:13] we should probably put it in now so that we can kind of do like a test batch to see if it works before things progress and then you might wanna be able to push the button and give yourself more or whatever. And so they put it in and I'm like, okay, yeah, you can run the trial amount. And they're like, okay. So they put it in, it's like 1030 and they're like, okay, we'll see you in a few hours. And by like 1231 AM, I'm like, I'm trying to push this button and it's like not working. I'm feeling a lot of pressure. Like this is a lot of pressure and I'm uncomfortable and I like, where's the epidural? And so they come back in and they're like, okay, well, you know, relax.
[28:58] Like, let's just check you. And then they're like, you're like nine and a half centimeters dilated. And I was like, oh, well, that makes sense why I'm feeling pressure. And I was like, well, can I have the epidural though? Because it's like really a lot of, and they're like, yeah, yeah, sure. So they give me the epidural and then they're like, okay, it's time to push. And I'm like, hold on. I can't feel my legs. Like, I know.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[29:23] But you didn't see that coming?
Jenna Pastuszek[29:25] I didn't.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[29:26] Oh, they should have seen that coming.
Jenna Pastuszek[29:29] I guess so. So then they're like, okay, well, we're gonna have to labor you down for 45 minutes to let this epidural wear off. So you can feel your legs again.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[29:39] By that, do they just mean like, just not do anything and let things proceed?
Jenna Pastuszek[29:44] They gave me like a peanut ball. My nurse was helping me change positions and change sides. Just trying to help the baby get a little lower down, but you're not pushing at all. No, I wasn't pushing at all. I was kind of just hanging out, eating ice chips, I think. They were great. There's nothing like a hospital ice chip. And there's nothing like a hospital, what they call the like mom mocktail or whatever. That juice, that apple juice, cranberry juice.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[30:12] Yeah, orange juice. I think about that juice all the time.
Jenna Pastuszek[30:15] That's the only reason I thought we shouldn't have a home birth. Well, the thing is, is that even if I bought those ingredients to make them at home, it wouldn't be the same. It has to be in those little plastic cups with the peel off lid. That's why. That's the argument against home birth. So anyway, so then they come back in. And they're like, okay, it's time to push. I think the baby's heart rate is dropping because they're like, don't panic. But like 20 people are going to roll into this room at the same time. And I was like, okay. So there I am.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[30:49] One of them is that security guard.
Jenna Pastuszek[30:51] One of them is a security guard.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[30:52] In parking.
Jenna Pastuszek[30:53] One of them is a doctor I've never met from this practice.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[30:57] Oh, from your group.
Jenna Pastuszek[30:58] Yeah, she wasn't on call. And then I had my nurse on my right leg, my broken leg. And I had Ben, my husband, on my left leg. And so they're like, okay, it's time to push. And the way that the doctor explained pushing, she was like, so what's going to happen is you're going to inhale. Then you're going to hold your breath while you push. And then you're going to exhale. And then rinse and repeat. And we'll do like three in a row. And then we'll take a pause. And then we'll do three in a row and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay. And so I am really focusing on this breathing situation that they're explaining for me to do. But I'm also thinking in my head,
[31:38] this nurse on my right leg is not giving me enough friction to push back on. And so I start yelling at her and I'm like, lady, you have to hold my leg and give me a little bit of something to push against. And she's like, but your leg is broken. I was like, I don't care. Yeah, I don't care. I need the resistance. It's already broken. So who cares? And she's like, okay. And so her and Ben are holding my legs and pushing against them. And then all I can see from my head is the doctor in between my legs making this circular swirling motion with her hands. And the way I'm describing it, it's like I was watching her being like, wow, she's concocting a witch's world down there.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:19] Yeah, double, double.
Jenna Pastuszek[32:21] And I'm like, what is she doing? And later Ben told me that she's keeping her hands there so that every time I stop the push, the head doesn't go back in. But for me, I was like, well, all I feel is a lot of pressure. And I see hands very wide apart, but inside me hypothetically looking like she's making a witch's stew. So I guess is this the magic of labor that people talk about?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:46] Yeah, you missed out with the C-section.
Jenna Pastuszek[32:49] Yeah. And so 20 minutes later, my daughter was born and I pushed for 20 minutes. And then we didn't know what I was having. So she comes out, they put her on my chest and they're like, Ben, do you wanna announce it? And he is so emotional because he wanted to have a daughter. And he's like, it's a girl. And I'm like, oh my God, it's a girl, what? I thought I was having another boy. My pregnancy was literally the exact same. I could have sworn this was a boy. And so I'm like, wow, this is a girl. And so then they are like, Ben, would you like to cut the cord? And he is like, I, I, I, I. And I'm like, give me the scissors. Welcome to the world, girl.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[33:34] You cut the own cord, your own cord?
Jenna Pastuszek[33:36] I cut my own cord.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[33:38] Oh, that's cool.
Jenna Pastuszek[33:39] It was really cool.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[33:40] Do you have a picture of that?
Jenna Pastuszek[33:42] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[33:43] Oh my God.
Jenna Pastuszek[33:44] I'll send it to you. And then I was like-
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[33:47] It's so you though.
Jenna Pastuszek[33:48] Yeah, and then they were like, you know-
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[33:50] And then you ate it right there.
Jenna Pastuszek[33:52] Yeah, I ate that placenta. I said, give me, take a, I was like, take a picture of my placenta. I want to see what I grew. But they were like, you were so good at pushing because you're a singer and you're able to-
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:03] Oh, cause your lungs and your breath.
Jenna Pastuszek[34:05] Yeah, like you're able to like functionally separate the two, like the inhale and the exhale and the holding and all of that kind of stuff. So you're very coordinated. That's really cool. And I was like, oh, wow, that's so cool. And so actually at some point, I recorded all these videos while I was pregnant to talk about the similarities between singing and prenatal Pilates and like basically prenatal strength training. So I need to release those on the interwebs.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:30] Inborn Pregnancy Plus?
Jenna Pastuszek[34:32] Yeah, maybe I should do it there.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:34] We would love to host you. Anything you- Okay, wow, wow. With a picture of you biting into your rough placenta. So, congratulations. I know it's been a little bit now, but still I feel all the feels right now for you.
Jenna Pastuszek[34:48] Yeah, it was cool. I had a cervical tear. So they told me that my cervix tore because my labor progressed so quickly. And that was a weird feeling to feel like the middle of my body was ripped. And then I also-
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[35:03] Not in a good way.
Jenna Pastuszek[35:04] Yeah. And I had a labial tear, which actually was more painful because it felt like I had a paper cut like on my vagina.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[35:12] That doesn't even feel good on my finger.
Jenna Pastuszek[35:14] No, but I didn't have any other tearing. So that was it.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[35:18] Tear cervix in your labia.
Jenna Pastuszek[35:20] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[35:21] Who needs either of those?
Jenna Pastuszek[35:23] What else would tear? You know, and so I knew we were at Cedars again. And so I was like, please put down my order for the 4 p.m. cookie and milk delivery because I'm hip to that.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[35:37] Second case for hospital birth. Yeah, that's right. They're warm.
Jenna Pastuszek[35:42] Warm baked cookies. Warm chocolate chips. Oh my God, they're so good. So yeah, it was a grand old time. I was like, okay, now that I've had both kinds of births, I can see the pros and cons of each. They are both, well, they're both a challenging recovery in different ways. C-section, you have just had seven layers of your abdomen cut open, right? But with vaginal birth, you just stretched out your entire vagina, butt area. It's like, I mean, pooping after I gave the vaginal birth, it took me like a week to figure out how to do that again. And I had to like talk my body into doing it because those muscles were so uncoordinated or I don't know,
[36:29] there's fear around it or something, but it was weird.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[36:33] What else postpartum, how did it compare?
Jenna Pastuszek[36:36] I think postpartum with a toddler at home
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[36:40] is a hellscape. It's a different situation.
Jenna Pastuszek[36:43] It's a different situation. When you have your first kid, in my experience, it's stressful because you've never had a kid before and you're also like, what have I done to my life now that I have this being that is relying on me at every waking moment. When you have a toddler and then you are also trying to recover yourself and also deal with a newborn, that provides its own set of logistical challenges and guilt and questioning of what you've done. But I felt so much more confident in my skills as a parent because I was like, no, they make weird gurgling sounds like when they're newborns, they just make weird noises. So I don't need to panic that she's gonna die at every second,
[37:28] like she's okay. And so there's just things that you know after the first time that the second time are a little bit more manageable.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[37:36] I think that's a really good description of both of those things. Servicing two needy customers at the same time is very challenging physically and emotionally, but also like it's not your first time around the block.
Jenna Pastuszek[37:48] Yeah, yeah. Now I can only imagine having three kids, four kids, like, does it get different?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[37:53] I think it does get easier actually. The oldest kid gets old enough to be less needy and dependent and a little bit helpful.
Jenna Pastuszek[38:00] Oh, that's nice.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[38:01] So it's a little different there.
Jenna Pastuszek[38:02] Like making casseroles helpful or-
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[38:05] Depends on your kid, but they also, I think learning to service more than one needy customer is the biggest challenge. Adding to that is not as big of a transition, you know? Like you already figured out the juggle.
Jenna Pastuszek[38:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[38:23] All this and you hustle back to New York for the show you're doing.
Jenna Pastuszek[38:28] Yeah, so the show that I had been doing in LA at the Kirk Douglas up until I was 33 weeks pregnant, it's a show called 44, the Obama musical, as told through the hazy recollection of Joe Biden. And I play Hillary Clinton and a smattering of other people. And so the company knew that I was pregnant and then they knew that I would go away and give birth. And then we also all knew that the show was transferring to New York. And we were gonna do an off-Broadway run at the Daryl Roth Theater in Union Square. And I was like, well, I'm definitely going to do that because since moving to LA and since having my kids a musical theater performer, and so I was like, this is what I wanna do
[39:15] and this is the work and so let's go and let's do this. And so postpartum was definitely different this time as well because I knew I had something to get back to quickly. With postpartum with my first kid, I had a lot of identity questions too about what would having a kid do to me as a creative, do to me as an artist mean for my performing career? And I didn't have any of those questions this time because I knew that I was gonna continue to be me and continue to do my work and that my kids would learn from me that they can be passionate about whatever they wanna be passionate about and do the work that fulfills them and I will support that. So yeah, so I knew that we would be traveling
[40:03] back to New York when my daughter was six weeks old to go into rehearsals and then at seven weeks old, I would go back into performances doing eight shows a week. And so the postpartum was more complicated because I was also juggling logistics of where are we gonna live and who is going to watch my daughter while I'm at work and what is my son gonna do because we have him enrolled in school in Los Angeles and he has friends and activities but also at the same time, how much time away from his mom does he want to spend and all of that. And so we created a plan where my husband and my son would stay mostly in LA but come back and forth at least once a month
[40:50] and for longer periods of time at the holidays for Thanksgiving and the end of the year and that my daughter would come with me because presumably I would be breastfeeding her again and so she obviously would need my milk. Well, like my son, she also had an upper lip and tongue tie. So we had some feeding issues. She likes to latch. She finds comfort in that experience. My son was not interested in it at all and so that's been a nice bonding situation for us but she hasn't been able to transfer milk effectively from the breast. So again, I find myself exclusively pumping and feeding her the milk that I pump. And yeah, but I'm working with a company
[41:34] who's been nothing but supportive and actually I'm lucky in that a lot of the people in my show, both creatives, both producers and fellow castmates are parents. And so this was a really place. Yeah, a really great soft place to come back into performing because I've worked with these people for a few years and also they all get the parenting thing. So it's sort of a running joke when I'll be like, okay, I'm gonna go to the, you know, and everyone's like, oh, let Jenna off stage first so she can go pump. And I'm like, yep, my 15 minute intermission, gotta get it done.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[42:10] Do people bring babies to the show?
Jenna Pastuszek[42:13] My coworker has a four-year-old and he's come to the show a few times. I haven't brought my daughter yet or my son but I think that I will over the Thanksgiving break when they come to visit.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[42:25] Well, I mean, quite a story. Did the foot heal very well?
Jenna Pastuszek[42:30] Yeah, you know, I went back for my checkup and the ortho was like, this, you know, it seems to be healing. It probably was already healing by the time I saw you and put you in the boot anyway. And so it actually feels great. And I do have to give you a shout out because you let me borrow a laser from you for a month. And so while I was figuring out logistics of moving to New York and figuring out breastfeeding and all of that, I was also lasering my leg which I really do think helped. So yeah, appreciate that.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[42:56] I've been doing it for my son. He asked for an E-bike and then broke all his bones. So he's been pretty laser heavy ever since then. But he's healing really well. So can't complain. Jenna, as always, you are quite interesting and I love how I can ask you anything and how real you are. And also you just describe things really well. And I can sort of almost feel like I'm in them. Like my cervix is torn and my ankle is broken.
Jenna Pastuszek[43:25] I wish neither one of those things on you.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[43:27] Thank you, you're the best.
Jenna Pastuszek[43:28] Yeah, if you need someone to describe them when they do happen to you, let me know.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[43:32] You are the best as always. Where can we find you online?
Jenna Pastuszek[43:35] You can find me at The Jenna P. The Jenna P. And there's always interesting stuff to check out there.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[43:41] And one day in the not too distant future, you might even have some videos on Informed Pregnancy Plus which can be found at informedpregnancy.tv. Jenna, thanks again for joining me at home. Thanks for listening to the Informed Pregnancy podcast. For more parenting and pregnancy information just like this, visit us online at informedpregnancy.com.
Want more pregnancy + parenting? Start your FREE TRIAL of Informed Pregnancy+ and get access to all our curated pregnancy and parenting content — original series, iconic birth films like The Business of Being Born, prenatal workouts and more.
Francesca Fondevila is a postpartum care provider and the founder of Mother Bones, a boutique in home practice offering nourishment, bodywork, and ritual support for new moms. She discusses postpartum as not only a recovery period but as a transformative passage of becoming.
Informed Pregnancy Media and Mahmee present an all new podcast! One Way or a Mother is a new narrative podcast from Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC. Each season is an intimate story of one woman, one pregnancy, and all of the preparations, emotions, and personal history leading up to the birth. Episodes feature the expectant mother along with her family, doctors, and birth work team.
AI-generated transcript with speaker labels — may contain errors, especially names and medical terms. Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC appears in blue; Francesca Fondevila in orange.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:00] My guest today is a Los Angeles-based postpartum care provider and founder of Mother Bones, a boutique in-home practice offering nourishment, bodywork, and ritual support for new mothers. She sees the postpartum period not simply as recovery, but as a transformative passage of becoming. I'm pregnancy-focused chiropractor Dr. Elliott Berlin, and you are listening to the Informed Pregnancy Podcast. Francesca Fandavilla, welcome to the podcast.
Francesca Fondevila[0:40] Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:43] I'm so excited to learn from you, because I feel like you have so much knowledge and interestingness to share about postpartum, based partially on your own experience and now based partially on the expertise from the work that you do. Before we jump into that, let's start at the beginning, so we can get a better sense of who you are. Where are you from originally?
Francesca Fondevila[1:03] I'm from Los Angeles. Heard of it? I grew up in Hancock Park, and I went to school in the valley.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:12] 818?
Francesca Fondevila[1:13] Mm-hmm.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:14] Mm-hmm. So, you know, as a younger person starting to think about what kinds of things you like to do, where were your energies focused? What did you think was going to be your career path?
Francesca Fondevila[1:28] Well, I was always very creative. I was an illustrator. I did embroidery art. I had a jewelry line, and I made clothes and sold clothes places.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:43] Wow.
Francesca Fondevila[1:44] Yeah. And I've also always loved cooking for people and, like, entertaining and hosting parties.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:51] Wow. I needed people like that in my life, because I like eating and being entertained. So creative. I mean, I think the first time I met you, just this huge creative energy came off of you, so it sounds like I nailed that one. And then what you currently do, mother bones, very interesting, unique attention for new moms who, in my opinion, don't get nearly enough attention. So I love what you're doing. But that kind of sparked a little bit from your own journey of pregnancy and postpartum. So let's talk about your, you have one child so far.
Francesca Fondevila[2:28] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[2:29] How old?
Francesca Fondevila[2:30] She's going to be four in February.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[2:31] Ooh, wow. Okay. We're going to flash back a little bit to the days of just after COVID when you were pregnant. What kind of approach did you take to your own pregnancy? More medical, more holistic, something in between? And what shaped you taking that approach?
Francesca Fondevila[2:52] I definitely went with a holistic approach. Right before I got pregnant, I read Lily Nichols' book, The Real Food for Pregnancy, which was an eye-opener and… I love out-of-the-box thinkers.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:07] Yeah.
Francesca Fondevila[3:08] And not just thinkers, but research, like real information that is not grossly outdated. If you haven't read Lily Nichols' book, I strongly recommend it. Yeah, it's so good. I sent it to multiple people. Men, I think everyone would benefit from reading the book.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:27] Okay. That's an approach to eating during pregnancy, healthier eating. And what about the care provider? Are you more of a medical doctor or more of a midwife?
Francesca Fondevila[3:38] So around the same time, I stumbled on a really old podcast with Dr. Stuart Fishbein in it, and that also blew my mind. It was the first time I really listened to someone explain the options for birth and how people used to do it, what you can do now, the effective interventions, and various aspects like that.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[4:03] Right, it's kind of interesting. I still encounter so many people who don't know that there are even options. Like, the assumption is you must give birth in a hospital with a medical doctor and drugs. And there are so many more options. And where were you headed before that podcast with doctors? Were you already pregnant at that point?
Francesca Fondevila[4:22] No.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[4:23] Oh, so this is pre-pregnancy.
Francesca Fondevila[4:25] Pre-pregnancy, but right before. So, okay, I hadn't thought about my pregnancy before getting pregnant. It happened very quickly.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[4:34] That's a blessing.
Francesca Fondevila[4:35] Yes.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[4:36] If you wanted it.
Francesca Fondevila[4:38] Yeah, of course. And then reading Lily Nichols' book, some other books, and then listening to Dr. Stu's podcast, I had an epiphany. So I didn't pivot from wanting a medical birth to a home birth. My coming into pregnancy came at the same time as my learning these other options and they were just no-brainers for me.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:03] What'd you pick?
Francesca Fondevila[5:04] I had a medicated home birth.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:06] Okay. So you were under midwifery care the whole time?
Francesca Fondevila[5:10] Yes. I actually got to see Dr. Stu. I saw him.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:13] Oh, wow.
Francesca Fondevila[5:14] It was lovely. And he said I didn't need him.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:17] Oh.
Francesca Fondevila[5:18] And then he moved to Utah. Yeah. But I actually got to see him two other times before he moved to Utah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:27] Yeah. I mean, we have a couple of episodes you can search and he has his own podcast, Dr. Stu's podcast, that you can search. And he's in our documentary film, Heads Up! The Disappearing Art of Vaginal Breach Delivery, because to him, that option should never have been taken away. And he's an avid not just supporter of your type of birth, but he goes around the country and now around the world teaching people, providers who are intellectually curious what it's like to attend a vaginal bridge delivery and how to do it safely. So he's real champion for rights when it comes to those things. So midwifery care. Now, was there any, you know, I think a lot of people think about child
[6:05] birth as a very intense experience, perhaps a painful experience, sometimes an experience that could have medical repercussions, complications, and then they get really nervous about delivering with either no drugs or no hospital. Did you have any of those thoughts or it was like, oh, this makes perfect sense to me?
Francesca Fondevila[6:23] No, it made perfect sense to me. I have a very high tolerance for it was still painful. Don't get me wrong. But I'm not someone that anticipates pain and gets overly scared. I'm much more affected by emotional disturbances than physical.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[6:38] I mean, that makes sense. I think emotional pain is more painful than physical pain, generally speaking. Yeah. And so emotionally you felt safe and comfortable at home.
Francesca Fondevila[6:49] Yeah, very much.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[6:51] Who was present at your birth besides you and your partner?
Francesca Fondevila[6:55] Well, my midwife wasn't present.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[6:57] OK, then. Well, this is a story. Who was supposed to be present at your birth?
Francesca Fondevila[7:02] My midwife, I had a doula, but it was during COVID. I think maybe we've met once before and I didn't have questions for her. I wasn't overly concerned or worried that something would go wrong or I knew it would be painful, but I didn't have a lot of questions for her. So anyways, she did come. My husband texted her.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[7:27] Let's start at the beginning. So in a nutshell, how did your labor start and progress?
Francesca Fondevila[7:33] It was my first day of maternity leave at my old job, my first day off. And we were watching The Sopranos and my water broke. And it was around 10 p.m. And I texted Stacey, my doula, Stacey Blackwell. Very lovely. Yeah. And I was like, I think I'm just going to try to rest and go to sleep because, you know. And then I tried and I couldn't. And around 1130, I decided to measure my contractions on the phone. And they were a minute apart. Very quickly.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:09] Yeah.
Francesca Fondevila[8:10] So it was just like, oh, my water broke. Yeah. My water broke to, oh, my God, huffing a candle, putting combs in my fingers, in my hands, like because someone said you can't feel pleasure and pain at the same time. So I went and woke my husband up. And then I got on all fours on the floor of our bedroom. And I didn't leave there until she came out. And one of the pictures I sent you was me on all four yoga mats.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:36] Yeah, we'll put it on the carousel. I saw the picture. I'm like, what is going on here? OK. So you're at home on your yoga mat on all fours, like having mega surges and water broken. Are you at all nervous at that point since there's, I mean, Stacey got there?
Francesca Fondevila[8:53] Stacey got there, but again, with all due respect, I was like, who's this? OK. That's how I kind of felt a little bit. I felt like that a little bit. I think she was trying to take pictures. I didn't want to hear the sound of the camera clicking. Yeah, because she's also a photographer. Yeah. OK. She tried to run a bath for me. I didn't want to hear the water running. I wasn't scared. I was just like, how am I going to do this for 24 hours because I thought I was going to be in labor. I thought I was going to be one of those people that labor forever. And it just went from zero to like I didn't have anything in between. Like my water broke. I tried to rest and my contractions were a minute apart.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:33] Your luxury sports car zero to 60 in two seconds.
Francesca Fondevila[9:37] Yeah. And so it was more of a I don't know how I'm going to do this because it was so intense.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:45] OK. And are there any things in that moment that are soothing to you?
Francesca Fondevila[9:50] It was so fast. I really don't remember a lot of it, too.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:53] OK. So how long from 10 p.m. water breaking to where we are right now on the mat? Not wanting to hear any noise no matter what. Wondering how you're going to get through the next 24 hours.
Francesca Fondevila[10:05] It was probably 12 something in the morning. It's just a little two to three hours.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:11] OK. And at that point, your doula is there and you've already notified your midwife. And are they on the way?
Francesca Fondevila[10:18] I remember Stacey putting my midwife on the phone and like under me. And I was like I think I said don't come yet because I didn't know.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:30] Because in your mind 24 more hours.
Francesca Fondevila[10:32] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:33] Don't get here too early.
Francesca Fondevila[10:34] Yeah. And then at some point, I think Stacey does call her and say like come here now because the baby started coming out.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:45] OK. Now in total suspense. So let's take a break. And we're going to get the rest of that story when we come back. OMG. We're back with Francesca Fundavilla. And OK. You went from like a person that would just give birth at a hospital. Seeing Dr. Stu changing your mindset. Giving birth at home with a midwife is the plan. Go into labor with your water breaking through. Sopranos of course. How dramatic. And then three hours later, you're on the yoga mat. You're not totally like in your own world, not wanting to hear anything at all. And sort of thinking, OK, first baby, it's going to take a while, which is typically true. And sort of telling your midwife, hey, not yet.
[11:36] We don't need you. And then all of a sudden, last thing you said before commercial was, oh, the baby's head started to come out.
Francesca Fondevila[11:42] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:43] First of all, what did that feel like?
Francesca Fondevila[11:45] Insane. Like I felt like I was going to throw up kind of, but not like I had something to come out. But like the contractions felt like that to me. The intensity. The intensity of them. And then feeling her head come out was wild. But again, I think my memory of it is not the best because it went so quickly.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:10] Yeah, you're on a different planet. OK, so the head comes out and it's you, your husband and your doula. What happens? What do you guys do?
Francesca Fondevila[12:20] She filmed it. So we have it on film.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:22] Oh, gee.
Francesca Fondevila[12:23] Yeah. No sound, though. And yeah, the head comes out. It's out for maybe a minute, maybe. And then the rest of the body comes out and then my husband grabs her and hands her to me. And then my midwife comes running in.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:41] Oh, wow. So almost made it. And are you still on that yoga mat?
Francesca Fondevila[12:47] Yep.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:48] Oh, wow. OK. Probably time for a new yoga mat.
Francesca Fondevila[12:52] Yeah, but I do still have it.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:53] Oh, you do?
Francesca Fondevila[12:54] Yeah. I cleaned it.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:56] All right.
Francesca Fondevila[12:57] Good cleaning agents.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:58] Yeah. Wow. OK. I mean, are you happy with that experience?
Francesca Fondevila[13:03] It's interesting. I have varying feelings about it every year. Again, I don't have a lot of memory of it. It went so fast. Like I hear other stories of like women laboring. I didn't really have a labor.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:17] No. Does the video bring you back into it or does it feel just surreal like it's somebody else?
Francesca Fondevila[13:22] No, it feels surreal. It feels a little surreal. And I think I was in a certain level of shock. I never felt scared. Just how am I going to do this for so long? And oh, my gosh, it's happening. And oh, my gosh, it happened. And then I was like… Which is heaven. Yeah, but like so happy to see her. Like it was like, oh, my God, I'm so happy to see her.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:48] And how big was she?
Francesca Fondevila[13:51] Seven pounds something, I think.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:53] Wow. I only say that because you're very small.
Francesca Fondevila[13:56] I am small. I mean, I was six pounds, 15 ounces when I was born and my mom had to have a C-section. There's air quotes going on. You guys can't see. And maybe she did. I wasn't… Well, I was there, but…
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:10] That's right. You were there. Yeah. Good point. So you were healthy. Were you at 40 weeks?
Francesca Fondevila[14:17] She was 10 days early.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:18] Okay. So 38 and changed. That's a healthy weight. You're just small. And this baby just seemingly slid out of you with no effort whatsoever. So that's where the wow came from.
Francesca Fondevila[14:30] She's also already half my height. I have four years old.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:34] Yeah. Did you tear?
Francesca Fondevila[14:37] I had minor inner labia tear, minor. And my midwife offered to sew it up. It's fine. Skid marks.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:45] Yeah. Okay. So that's an interesting birth story. Not exactly how you planned it. In some ways, people's dream. When I ask people, how do you want your birth to go? They're like, quick and easy. Not that that was easy, but it was quick.
Francesca Fondevila[14:58] It felt very empowering. I did. I felt like, holy cow, look what I did. I felt on top of the world afterwards. But I know that's also adrenaline, I think, still coursing through me. And it was. I am proud of it. But then I think in retrospect, there were times I've looked back and I wish I had more memories of it. I wish I had people around me that I felt like my husband was there. But I really cultivated such a strong relationship with my midwife. Again, it went so quickly. I don't know if I would have still blocked her out on some level because I felt so sensitive to sound.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[15:39] Is something a little alone about it? I hear that. And sometimes there's no time for a transition. No build-up. Boom, it's just here. I definitely hear people with precipitous labor sometimes bemoaning the fact that it was too fast. And of course, people have a very long labor, can't relate. But I understand that. I think there's a sweet spot.
Francesca Fondevila[16:00] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:01] That's like just a train moving through you all at once. Especially for the first, it's not all that common. OK, so did you have thoughts on what postpartum would be like? The immediate postpartum, the extended postpartum?
Francesca Fondevila[16:15] No.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:16] Just one?
Francesca Fondevila[16:18] I did read the first 40 days. I read some of that and probably…
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:22] I make an appearance in there.
Francesca Fondevila[16:24] Oh, amazing. And probably some other things. But I really loved being pregnant. I loved pregnancy so much. And my birth was so fast. I really thought that was the hard stuff and everything else would sort itself out.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:39] Sounds like postpartum wasn't the easiest. What happened? No.
Francesca Fondevila[16:43] I went from feeling super high and on top of the world, not in like a manic way, in a grounded way. And I also remember my husband and I were laughing because I was like, people talk about the sleep deprivation. What are they talking about? It's so easy. You just wake up every couple of hours. But then after a couple of weeks of that, you feel the effects of it. And I just think I felt a bit of shock that I was having such a hard time. I felt really disconnected from my body, which was very uncomfortable for me and painful, especially since I loved being pregnant so much and I worked hard to have a good relationship with myself. What do you think was fueling that?
[17:32] I think hormonal, for sure. Nervous system out of whack. And I went from seeing my midwife and spending an hour with her almost every week to you go from all these compliments and all this love and this and that to then everything goes really quiet. And then people are only asking or talking about the baby.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[17:57] Oh, that's true. I have heard people say that also. And I find that right. I mean, my clients say sometimes things along those lines that I'm not even seeing anymore.
Francesca Fondevila[18:10] Yes. And I didn't have any close friends. I had a couple, but I would ask them certain things and they didn't really remember what it was like to have a newborn. I couldn't find someone that resonated with me at all with struggles, which were also very painful to feel any struggles or fears and anxieties. I couldn't even talk about it with people and the amount of shame and sadness and guilt I felt.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[18:42] Because you had a healthy baby?
Francesca Fondevila[18:44] Because I thought I did everything right. Because I loved pregnancy and I thought that was hard. So many women say, I just can't wait for the baby to be out. The baby was out. And now I felt like, who's this? Who's this? Wait a minute. What happened to this person, me? I was not prepared for those feelings and the sense of isolation I had. Does that make sense?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:09] Yeah. I've also heard people say when I was pregnant, I get on a bus and a bunch of people stand up. Do you want my seat? And now I'm postpartum and I'm weak and I'm depleted and nobody even sees that I got on the bus. And that's just strangers on the bus. But I think it's also true with family and friends.
Francesca Fondevila[19:27] Very much so.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:29] Yeah.
Francesca Fondevila[19:30] It's really important that you're saying that, I think. Yeah. Even with family, they really wanted to know when I would be going back to work and wanted all these things from me pretty quickly. And I didn't even know where to begin to ask for help because I didn't even know what I needed because I felt so dysregulated.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:55] I feel like you had challenging birth in a way that most people don't, but still challenging. And then challenging postpartum in a way that perhaps many people do, but don't talk about. And so I'm really not just glad that you're talking about it. I'm sorry that you experienced it, but you're kind of one of those people that has an experience like that and you don't let it knock you down. You let it make you stronger and then also go pick yourself up and try to prevent other people from having that experience.
Francesca Fondevila[20:27] Well, yeah, because I know, especially more recently with Cultivating Mom Friends, I've had all these deep conversations that no one, even my friends that prepared for postpartum, energetically, physically, all this stuff, were still caught off guard with it. I just think it's really hard to talk when you're going through it at the time. It was so near impossible for me to talk to anybody about the struggles I was going through because I felt so connected to my baby. I loved being a mom. I was so excited, but I was just struggling in a lot of emotional pain. I think it's quite possible to feel multiple things at once.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:13] Of course.
Francesca Fondevila[21:15] Yeah, and I am outspoken about it because I do think it's really important and I don't think enough women talk about it, and I want there to be more communication about this stuff.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:26] Yes, you're outspoken and you've also taken a lot of action to support other people going through the postpartum journey. Let's take another little break. When I come back, I want to learn more about Mother Bones. Based on what I know already, I sort of want to have a baby so I can get some Mother Bones care on the other side. We'll be right back.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:47] Welcome back. We are talking to Francesca Fondavilla and the founder of Mother Bones. So you had a bit of a challenge with your birth, a surprise and a challenge with your birth, a take-you-by-surprise postpartum experience that I think a lot of people have. And now you've taken your intense creative energy and your recognition of the need for some solutions and you've put together some incredible things in Mother Bones. Tell me all about it.
Francesca Fondevila[22:31] So Mother Bones is a continuation of care, the bridge between the medical or the birth and the maternal. I bring together the science of postpartum recovery with the art of nourishment and beauty. Meals, warmth and touch, which rebuild the body, ceremony and beauty, which restore the spirit.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[22:57] I mean, it sounds incredible. It is an intense mind, body and spirit experience, that transition. I always tell people my sense of postpartum is that it's rocky terrain. Yeah. And, you know, when you go driving on rocky terrain, you could have an incredible experience if you're in the right vehicle. But if you take your little family sedan off-roading on, you know, rocky terrain, it's not going to be a fun experience and you're not going to want to do it again. So I think that the rocky terrain is just there and what you do with it is kind of up to you. And I think most people don't even have a thought like, oh, maybe there should be a plan or something
[23:41] I should do for myself and to take care of me. In fact, I hear a lot of art clients express even coming in for their body work, even if they're hurting, you know, if something got popped out of place during a birth or something like that. Yeah, I want to come in, but I really, I don't have time for me. I got to, you know, take care of the baby. I'm like, I just want you to know anything that you do to take care of yourself is also taking care of anybody else who depends on you. And I don't know, that message doesn't seem to resonate. Naturally, it has to be sort of explained. And so everything that you mentioned there sounds incredible, and especially as a combination of services.
Francesca Fondevila[24:18] Yeah, so what you said, I was having a conversation with a friend today and we were talking about this, this upcoming podcast, and she brought up that she hates this phrase when people tell you to put your life mask on before anyone else is. Oh, on the airplane. Because when you're a new mom, a lot of times you don't even know how to do that. And it doesn't mean that you have to be in a dire state or anything, but your nervous system, your body gets rocked during birth, even if your mind doesn't fully recognize it. And it's very hard to put yourself first. It's just insanely hard. And I know that firsthand too, with my own experience, that I refused to do it.
[25:05] And I suffered greatly for it. And I wouldn't take it back, but at the end, your child wants, they want the whole version of their mom, not fragments of them, because you're sacrificing yourself so much.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[25:23] What ultimately helped pull you through?
Francesca Fondevila[25:26] This is complicated and kind of hard, I think, for me. So we spoke earlier about, I'm a pretty holistic person. I had a holistic birth, and my approach to things are pretty in that direction. But I'm not black and white. That being said, I thought I would breastfeed until my daughter was 18, 19 years old. I really believe that formula was poison. And to not breastfeed her is a very selfish thing to do, because you bring this child into the world. It is the best thing for them. So you need to sacrifice and do that. And I knew, and I couldn't verify this with anybody. I've tried to talk to doctors or whatever. I'm feeling really badly, and I think it's tied to the breastfeeding.
[26:21] I don't think it's that EMDR thing or whatever. Deemer. Deemer, it's not just anxiety with the letdown. I feel completely disconnected from my body. And again, I think this was also just so painful for me, because this thing I thought I would love so much, I didn't. I put up with things. I tough things out, you know? So I breastfed for six months, and then at six months, I was so emotionally unwell. I started giving her kendomil formula, and that was actually really around five months. I started doing that and weaning, and weaning was easy, and I started to feel significantly better. And I knew it. I knew the whole time. And this is, again, I don't have the science behind it.
[27:10] I don't have the medical anything behind it. For whatever reason, maybe it's too little or too much progesterone for my body type, but there was so much shame around this. I couldn't admit it to anybody for over a year that I gave my daughter formula, and I stopped breastfeeding at six months.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[27:29] And especially after five, six months, you gave during the most optimal times, the most necessary times, you gave pure breast milk. I think that everything that you're sharing here is, again, really important, because I think a lot of people will just suffer through it, or maybe will not suffer through it. Well, let's say you formula even at a month or so, and feel really guilty about it, and I think it's unfortunate there's nothing to feel guilty about. I think that everything that you do to you, collectively, mothers, do to give us life, you know, I see every day sacrifices, sacrifices during pregnancy, the various stages of pregnancy, sacrifices during birth and postpartum,
[28:11] and the way you give everything, mind, body, spirit, everything, for us to be able to exist, to be birthed, to be nurtured, and to be brought into, you know, older childhood and adulthood is insane. Like, just to be extremely… I'm in awe every day, and I've been doing this for 20 years. I'm still in awe all the time. And just should feel celebrated, and you should feel that same awe about yourself, everyone who does this. You deserve it. I mean, it's just… You see sometimes award shows and the crazy things that they give awards for. Everyone who has a baby should get the greatest award. So, I'm really sorry you had that experience. I'm sorry that it was hard for you
[28:56] and you wanted to like it and love it, and it wasn't something that you enjoyed loving. I'm hard that you had to really work hard to plow through it to get to where you got, and I'm hard that you felt guilty giving it up. I wish there's somehow we could go back and change that and make these experiences as joyous as you want them to be.
Francesca Fondevila[29:15] Yeah, but at the same time, I took this experience, and I've spent time reflecting on it and meditating on it, and it has fueled how I show up for myself now and how I know to show up for other mothers. That's the other thing. Your brain rewires when you get pregnant and have a baby and give birth, and it's a complete rewiring of your brain. So, it doesn't have to even get that far as to like… And it can get further for other women of like the amount you disregard yourself, but it happens really frequently, and even if it's not at like such a dire space or place, it's worth addressing these things immediately, like addressing you need to regulate your nervous system,
[30:02] addressing the need to slow down and to receive. Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[30:07] I much more power… I didn't know your story really until we just talked about it, and it turned out to be a much more powerful episode than I thought about with you. So, thank you for doing it, but sharing so openly and honestly what was a very difficult journey for you in many ways, and a joyous journey in other ways. Your whole life now is supporting people in postpartum, so for our audience listening, many of them are pregnant, many of them just getting to the postpartum stage. What advice would you give if you could pick something? What would you tell someone so that they have a better postpartum experience?
Francesca Fondevila[30:46] To think about how you might want to feel during the time and prepare for it and put steps in ahead of time, whether that's finding support or having food collected or talking to family members and friends to kind of have something set up for you.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[31:00] That's great advice. Thank you so much for the work that you do and for educating me today. I love to learn in general, and I love learning from you. Where can we find you online?
Francesca Fondevila[31:14] My Instagram handle is underscore mother underscore bones underscore, and my website is mother-bones.com.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[31:25] Mother-bones.com. I'm going to go check it out and see what kind of cool things in there. One thing, I love your branding.
Francesca Fondevila[31:32] Thank you very much.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[31:33] But, of course, it makes sense because you're super creative. It's very cool. You've got to go check it out. Francesca, thank you so much for joining me for sharing. And at home, thanks for listening to the Informed Pregnancy podcast. For more pregnancy and parenting information just like this, visit us online at informedpregnancy.com.
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