Liberté Chan is a former meteorologist and television reporter who’s preparing for the arrival of her first child via IVF. Now as a digital creator with a focus on fashion, travel, and wellness, she reflects on her work and her hopes and dreams for her new baby.
AI-generated transcript with speaker labels — may contain errors, especially names and medical terms. Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC appears in blue; Liberté Chan in orange.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:00] Today's guest is no stranger to the spotlight. As a dynamic on-air reporter, meteorologist, and influential digital creator, she's captivated audiences with her passion for fashion, wellness, and travel. But today, she's here to share an even more personal journey, her experience of becoming pregnant for the first time through IVF, and the hopes and dreams she holds as she prepares to welcome her baby. I'm pregnancy-focused chiropractor Dr. Elliott Berlin, and you're listening to the Informed Pregnancy Podcast. Liberty Chan, welcome to the podcast.
Liberté Chan[0:47] Thank you so much for having me.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:49] I'm excited to have you. First of all, how often do you get to talk to a real-life meteorologist?
Liberté Chan[0:55] Well, I just had a lunch with some girlfriends and two of the three were meteorologists.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:59] Oh my goodness.
Liberté Chan[1:00] If you're in that world, I guess it's more often than not.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:05] I guess for you, it's not a rare occurrence, but for me, it is. I want to jump right in because there's a lot to talk about here. I think it's an interesting career, just meteorology news in general now, like lifestyle, blogging, and not just blogging, but everything-ing, online-ing, and also this pregnancy, uh, going out and having a kid for the first time on your IVF journey and your plans for birth and parenting. Let's start at the beginning. Where are you from originally?
Liberté Chan[1:30] I am a Cedars baby, and that's where I'm having my baby girl.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:34] History repeats itself. Yes, um, born and raised in LA. So I am a native. And how was growing up in LA for you?
Liberté Chan[1:43] I loved it. I mean, it's home. It's all I knew and I really enjoyed it. I was kind of in that private school circuit. So I did the center. I did UES. I did Marlboro. I, you know, so I kind of did that private school circuit.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:58] You're wickedly fit. I mean, it's just true. Like I see a gazillion people. I see all sorts of professional athletes. You're just extremely fit. Well, and I'm just curious, like at what point did you get into fitness and taking care of yourself and what kinds of things have you done over the years?
Liberté Chan[2:16] Hmm. That's an interesting question. Um, I was a very active child. I discovered figure skating at the age of five. I hopped on the ice because I have two older brothers and they were at the ice rink and they were playing hockey. And my mom said, Oh, you should go try figure skating. So we threw on some skates. And within I'd say five minutes, I was skating around by myself.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[2:41] Oh, wow. Okay. Cause I threw in some skates and what it took five years and I still hold onto the wall, cringing for dear life.
Liberté Chan[2:47] I kind of just fell in love with it. I don't know that at a very young age. And then that turned into a competitive figure skating career. So I hopped on the ice at five and I competed until I was about 15 years old. It was pretty intense. Does the Southern California has, at least when I was a child, it had a pretty fierce and competitive scene. Of course, you know, I was like Michelle Kwan era. So I would skate with her and I just spent so much time on the ice. So I think going back to your question, it was just in me to be an active person. And even though I quit competing at 15 in college, I picked it up and I picked up some extra credits just by teaching a PE class.
[3:32] And then I took on private lessons in college to make some money. And then just training or skating, just training on ice. No, on ice. Oh yeah. Okay. Skating. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Skating. I thought you meant, did I compete like train while I was in college? No, but I taught figure skating to little kids. And then I also just picked up some college credits by teaching a PE class. I mean, skating is very physical on that level.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:57] So are there more workouts involved than skating or skating itself, the workout?
Liberté Chan[4:03] I mean, as a competitive figure skater, you have to cross train and you do ballet, you know, you lift weights, you do other stuff. So I learned early on that when I move my body, I feel my best. So that kind of just translated into after I left the skating world, after, you know, college, I continued, I'd went to the gym. I picked up strength training. I like a good cardio class. I'm a big soul cycle girl and yoga, yoga.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[4:34] For each of those things. I have a thing like, it's not soul cycle, soul food, and it's not yoga. It's yogurt frozen, mostly with a lot of toppings. We're so different. I think I should have taken your path though. It's a better path. I'm like, is competitive figure skating, is that totally individual or is there a team element to it?
Liberté Chan[4:52] It was individual. And then I did do some pair skating as well. So I went pretty far as a teenager. I went to nationals. I was nationally ranked at like 13, 14, and then I kind of just lost interest in it, but I think it just laid the groundwork for being an active person. And I don't feel good unless I wake up in the morning and I do something physically active and move my body. So now it's like yoga, it's cardio and it's strength training. That's kind of my three loves.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:23] Nice. It also puts you in the spotlight at a pretty young age, right? Cause if it's individual skating, all eyes on you, was that hard to get used to?
Liberté Chan[5:33] You know, I was never a big talker, but I could perform in front of an audience without speaking. I could express myself without speaking much better than I have a fear of public speaking, which is weird because I am on the news. Quite public. Oh yeah, I'm on air. But you put me in a room with 10 people and I will not stand up and talk to them. It's weird.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:59] So how did you make that leap?
Liberté Chan[6:02] Um, I knew early on in high school that I wanted to be in news because I would watch all the beautiful news girls here in LA, I'd watch the weather girls, I'd watch the journalists, the anchors, the reporters out in the field. And in my head, I'm like looking at these women and I'm like, first off, they're super smart. I love that. They're super confident and they just know everything. Like, you know, so much little did I know that took all day to create a story or reading a teleprompter. I just thought that they knew everything. So it just piqued my interest. Exactly. Exactly. So that's what piqued my interest. But being, I was a very shy child, you know, I could perform
[6:46] in front of people without speaking, but I had to get over that fear of talking on my camera.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[6:52] Was there a particular method you used to get over that shyness?
Liberté Chan[6:56] I just knew that I wanted the job of a reporter journalist so bad. And I thought to myself at like, you know, 20 years old, I said, if I don't do this now, I'm going to regret it my whole life. So let me figure out how to get over this fear. So for me getting over fear, I have to educate myself. So I went back to school, but I graduated with a degree in print journalism. And then I thought, okay, if I want to get into broadcaster, I have to get a broadcast journalism degree. So I went back to school and I enrolled in some broadcast journalism classes. I ended up getting an internship at KTLA and I was so scared to talk on camera, but there was a class.
[7:37] It was called how to read a teleprompter, something like that. And so I thought, okay, I need to push myself and get into this class. So I got into the class and we did this like training at KTLA with an anchor who worked there at the time. And she kind of just took me under her wing and became a mentor. And she worked with me and she said, you know, I started out in the business. I was very shy, just like you, you can get over this. And so she really gave me a lot of confidence and she taught me how to speak to a camera.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:09] Oh, that's really nice.
Liberté Chan[8:10] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:10] And then did you launch like from there into? Oh, Angeles market.
Liberté Chan[8:16] No, no, no. It was a long road. It was a long road with a lot of ups and downs. I have a few interests. Well, I have many interests, but at the time I was 21, I had graduated college and I was doing these other classes during UCLA and I thought, okay, I need to educate myself, but I'm also really into health and fitness. So I want to be a health reporter. So I thought I'm going to go to graduate school. So I got into USC's school of public health because I thought, well, if I want to talk about health, I don't just want to talk about it and read about it and research, I actually want a degree. I want to have a master's degree in public health.
[8:55] I thought it would give me credibility. I thought it would give me confidence. So I went back to school at USC and I got my graduate degree. And at the time I interned at KTLA. I became a news writer at KTLA because writing is the backbone of news. And I thought, okay, in two years, when I graduate with this degree, I will become a health reporter, you know, little did I know that, you know, you start off in a small market. They don't really have a job for health reporters. Yeah. You just call a doctor, you know, like you call an expert and you can just be a general assignment reporter and still report on health and fitness related stuff, but in a small market, you don't really have the luxury
[9:37] of having those people, those specific journalists who go out there. So I became a general assignment reporter in a small market. I sent out, gosh, like 50 tapes, reels, whatever videos. I don't even know what you call it anymore. Like a montage of you speaking on camera, trying to be a reporter and you send it to all these small markets. It was the original reel.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:04] Yeah, exactly.
Liberté Chan[10:05] Before these digital reels, it was literally a VHS tape that you sent out. Well, I sent out a DVD.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:11] DVDs, okay. One step later.
Liberté Chan[10:13] Okay. I sent out a bunch of DVDs and I got like no calls and I kept following up. And I'm kind of like, I don't give up. Like I'm kind of annoying. I'm like that person, which is good if you're a reporter journalist, cause you need to be like that. So I kept calling all these news stations. I sent it all across the country and I thought, well, I kind of just want to stay in California. I kind of want to be in California. I want to work my way back to LA. That was the dream. I just thought it would be really cool to work in a town that you grew up with and have your parents watch, you know, so I went up and one of my first interviews was in Santa Barbara and they passed on me and then I
[10:52] said, okay, well, let me see if I can go a little bit farther. So I went to a new station in Santa Maria and they actually hired me. And somehow, some way I got on air there. And I think it's like market, maybe 121, you know, New York's number one, LA is number two. It's a small market, but that's how you typically make your way back to a larger market. So I thought, okay, I'm going to put in my time and learn how to report. And so I became a general assignment reporter and I thought I was going to be fired every single day after work. I would go home. I would cry because every single time I would be on air, I would literally start shaking. I was so nervous.
[11:39] I had to take anti-anxiety medication because I would start sweating. My palms would get sweaty. My heart, like it was terrible, but somehow I didn't get fired. And then I jumped to Palm Springs as a morning anchor and I was eventually demoted after a year.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:57] Oh, but the anchor has a nice chair.
Liberté Chan[12:00] Yes. Yes. And then it was put out in the field and I had to edit and report and do all sorts of things. And I thought to myself, is this for me? I'm making, gosh, like maybe 15, $18 an hour, like out in the desert. It was 110 degrees. I was carrying my own equipment. I'm like, I don't know if this is for me. Maybe I'll go back to LA and try to quote unquote, make it. So I left Palm Springs and I came back to LA. I still had some connections at KTLA and I reached out to a producer who had helped me in the very beginning of my career and she said, oh, well, why don't you just come in and be a web producer? So I went back to KTLA as a web producer.
[12:42] It was a demotion, obviously, because I wanted to be on air, but they wouldn't put me on there because it was still green and I think Palm Springs is actually a smaller market than Santa Maria. It's like market 150 or 60, but it's a feeder market, meaning a lot of people who work in Palm Springs will make a big jump to LA. So I thought, okay, well, if other people can do it, I can do it too. Let me just get my foot in the door and at KTLA as a web producer, it was around the holidays. I had been there for about two months, just, you know, producing on the web, writing stories for other reporters and posting their reports. And I just never gave up on that dream of becoming a reporter here in LA.
[13:26] So I made friends kind of with the news director and I would go in there pretty much every day. And I'm like, did anyone call in sick? If they did, I'm available. And he's like, you know, he's thinking, okay, this is like very odd, like usually I hear from an agent, I don't hear from some web producer, but I kept going in there and I was kind of a nudge. And then one day it was around the holidays and someone, I think, called in sick and I went in there and he goes, okay, I'm going to give you a shot, Tamale story, because in LA, you know, it goes hand in hand with Christmas, so he's like, you're on a Tamale story, let's see what you can do. I went out there, I messed up.
[14:09] I was crying after the live shot because I thought, oh my gosh, I really effed up my chances of ever getting another chance, but somehow some way they gave me another shot and they kept giving me just a little chance, you know, it was like maybe one day a week and then nothing for three weeks and then another day a week. And I slowly, I think got better.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:32] You Lose your way in.
Liberté Chan[14:34] I did, I did in a very unconventional way.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:37] Well, I mean, that sounds like you in a lot of different ways. So that's a really interesting story. And it's sort of a little behind the scenes because we just turn on the TV and see people and I'll never really think about how they got there, but they do seem good at what they're doing in these big markets. I guess there's a lot that goes into that. Like anything else, you start someplace and have to work at it till you get great at it. You're taking on a new adventure, motherhood. And I want to talk about your road to getting pregnant and the pregnancy and your plans for birth. And also I lost one parent when I was young, you lost both.
Liberté Chan[15:14] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[15:14] And I want to kind of get a little bit more information about that. And I wonder how it affects you now that you're about to become a mom. Let's take a break. And we'll be right back.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[15:35] Welcome back. We're talking to Liberty Chan and you're going to become a mom. You lost your parents in your thirties. What happened and what was that like for you?
Liberté Chan[15:44] It was almost like being hit by a truck again and again and again. There were like four years where I lost my stepdad who became my dad. And then I lost my dog who I'm a huge dog lover and I had her for 13 years. And that was heartbreaking. And then I lost two best friends and then my mom got pancreatic cancer all within four years. So from 2017 to 2020, it was rough. So maybe I mean three, four years. So my dad was such a bright light in my life and he taught me so much. And I am the product of who he was for sure. I just catch myself doing things, saying things because he was such a strong influence in my life. Now I met him when I was 14. My biological dad, I have no contact with.
[16:37] I pretty much grew up with my mom taking care of everything. She put three kids through private school, basically like a single parent income, which is pretty bad ass if you think about it. Like, that's amazing. And so she was a great role model in that she had the work ethic of. I mean, it was incredible, which I think translates into my own work ethic. Maybe she worked too hard and maybe I worked too hard as well, but she would never stop. But anyways, she met my dad, Tom. He became my stepdad and I just call him my dad because, you know, he just, he was the wrong. Yeah. He stepped into the role of being a dad. So he was incredible. He was from a small town in Ohio, self-made created, you know, a lot
[17:28] of wealth just by being kind of a bad ass. And so together, I think it was a really good thing for me to see because they were both pretty much the hardest working people I've ever met. Even until the day they died. Yes. So I was very, very close with both of them. And my dad came down with ALS. He was diagnosed with ALS. Yeah. In 2015, at that time, I was a meteorologist on KTLA. He was so proud. Like my parents were so proud. They would watch. They would tell me what they thought, you know, was always like, it was lovely having them in my life. And then he got this horrible disease and watching him just become so frail. I mean, he was over six feet and then he just became such a frail
[18:13] person and you know, eventually it just robs you of everything and you're kind of a hostage in your own body. Like, you know, you can't even put on your pants at the end. You are wheelchair bound. It's a horrible disease. It's horrible. It's horrible. So that really cut me to the core when he passed in 2017. And then my dog died the following year, two best friends died. And then the following year after that, my mom was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, which pretty much one of the worst cancers that you can get, it's, it's pretty much a death sentence. I mean, I know that I think at the time it was like 8% survival rate, but within a year after her diagnosis, she passed as well.
[18:59] And at the time I had just met my now husband, I was actually on a trip. My mom, she's pretty much a badass and she, in between chemo treatments, she was planning trips around the world and she's like, let's go to this formula one race because my family was very much into formula one. My dad was a huge formula one race fan. So we went to a lot of races. And so, you know, kind of her last hurrah, her last year on earth, she planned her trips, you know, to Monaco to see the race, to Singapore to see the race. And I actually met my husband on a plane after the Monaco race with my mom and my brother was there on a plane. And I sat next to Louise, my now husband, who's the father of my child.
[19:49] And it was on a trip back from Paris to LA, but she, I think I was talking about how a hard worker she was. So at the end of her life, before she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer a year prior to that, she wanted to get a graduate degree in design. She was an interior designer and builder and she's like, I'm going back to school. She's in her late sixties at the time. Her husband had just passed my dad and she's like, I want to, you know, do some more higher education. So she graduated from UCLA back in the day and she thought, okay, I'm going to go to USC and get this master's degree in design and technology. So her second year, she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer.
[20:30] And she's like, well, I'm going to finish. And so in between chemo treatments, she would do her homework. And she's like, I got to get my projects done before I go into chemo because I'm going to be too sick and I'm going to be on, you know, I'm going to be in bed. And that's the last thing I'm going to do. So she did. And posthumously she was awarded her graduate degree.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[20:49] Wow. That's really incredible. Impressive and inspiring. And also kind of helps me understand you a little bit more than the tree from which you fell this hardworking apple. Well, now you're on the journey to becoming a mom yourself. Do your parents come up?
Liberté Chan[21:06] Oh my gosh. Every day I think about them every day and I pray to them every night. You know, I know they've met my baby girl. I mean, I hope I was like, they've connected with her. I don't know, you know, everyone believes different things, but I really do believe that they're going to be protecting her and they're here for the ride and once she's, you know, here on planet earth, I think they'll look out for her.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:32] Almost honestly almost feel them right now, even though we're not even in the same room, I could literally almost feel them here with us on the podcast right now.
Liberté Chan[21:41] Oh, you're going to make me cry.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:43] Oh, sorry. It's just a very strong energy. Liberty, you did IVF to get thus far along. What was that process like for you?
Liberté Chan[21:55] You know, it wasn't bad as my parents were very hard workers and I'm a very hard worker as well. And I never really wanted, like, I was never super focused on becoming a mom and having a family. I was super focused on career, but tomorrow talk about tomorrow. I was on air at key TLA early thirties and my mom was like, you don't really have like a guy that you're married to that you really love. Like, you know, you might change your mind in a few years. You might want to have a kid. I know you're really into your career and that's all you care about. I mean, you leave, you know, family trips early. You come back from, you know, I think I would, every time
[22:41] we would have a family trip, I would always leave early to come back and work on air because I was like, I don't want to be off air. You know, I have a job, I have a career. And so she was like, you might want to freeze your eggs. And she's like, you might decide in the future that you want kids. And I was like, okay. So I went through one round of IVF at the time and I froze my eggs and I am a very fertile person. Apparently, yeah, I was just born that way. And so we did one round and I got, I think 24 eggs and I was like, wow, I could have a football team.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:13] Wow. And that was just egg harvesting. You weren't making embryos. You're just taking them in the freezer.
Liberté Chan[23:19] Exactly. So they were all nice and then I didn't really think about it. Like at one time I was like, do I sell my eggs? Like I can make money. Like, I mean, nowadays eggs are so expensive, right? And then I could make other people's dream come true. I never did.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:34] Okay. So you kept them in the freezer.
Liberté Chan[23:35] Yeah, I kept them all on ice and then I met my husband. Yeah. I met him in 2019 eggs are still on ice right before the pandemic. Yes. Right before the pandemic, right before my mom actually died.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:50] So he met your mom.
Liberté Chan[23:52] He did. We were on the plane from Paris to LA and she's like, you're talking to that guy an awful lot. He's like, you never talk to people on planes. And I was like, I know, but. I know, but he's nice in any event. He did not want kids. So I went on, it was date number two and I didn't really call it a date because he wasn't really like the guy that I thought I would be into. It was just like a friend. I just really liked talking to this person from the airplane. Yeah. It was like a dude from the airplane and you know, there's an age gap between us and he's older and he has three grown children. And I was like, yeah, not looking for that. Like I was in my late thirties.
[24:35] He was in his early fifties. And I'm like, I'm not looking for a guy who's in his fifties with three grown kids, like that's just not what I'm looking for, but he was so nice and so kind and I'm like, I just like talking to him, you know, I'd like being around him, I like how he makes me feel. And so we went out on like, I'll call him meetups. I mean, to him, it was a date to me. It was just the meetup. Cause I was like, well, maybe he has some friends, you know, who whatever. So it was this meetup at the Waldorf Astoria that we had two dates there. Our first and second meetup or date, whatever you want to call it. And I was sitting there and I was like, Oh, do you want kids?
[25:16] And he's like, Oh no, Oh no, no, no, I'm done. I have three, they're all in their twenties. I'm good. And I was like, Oh, at that point it's like, does the conversation stop? And I thought to myself, well, I'm not really looking for like, I don't want to be with this guy. At that point I didn't. And I was like, okay, but do I leave now? I, it was just a weird like halt in the conversation, but he's so good at getting out of those like sticky situations that somehow we just navigated out of that conversation. And I knew where he stood and he knew where I stood. I said, Oh, maybe I want one. And then that was it. And then we had a great time after that.
[25:57] Okay. And then, you know, we fell in love and he still didn't want kids. And then we got married and he still didn't want kids. And I was like, okay, I can do this. Like I'll just live my life. I'll have my career. He has three kids, you know, so it's like a family. I don't need to be a mom. I was telling myself this. And then I kid you not, we got married in October and by December we were in Paris celebrating the new year. And I look over, we were having like a beautiful dinner and I look over and I see two young kids, probably both under the age of five, a little girl and a little boy. They were dressed to the nines. They looked adorable. And I just started crying at the table.
[26:44] I just started bawling and he looks over and he's like, what is going on? And I was like, Oh my gosh, I want to be a mom. Like I'm never going to have that. I'm never going to be able to dress like a little girl or a little boy in like a cute suit or dress. Like how can I go through life without being a mom? Like this is a big deal to me. And he's trying to get me to stop crying because you know, we have like three more courses. And so he said, okay, let's not talk about this tonight. Let's table this. I'm not saying no, I'm saying let's talk about it in the morning. And so I was like, okay, okay. And the morning came and he's like, this is a big topic.
[27:21] I don't think we're going to get to a decision today. And I thought, okay, he's like, again, it's not off the table, but I don't know if I can really jump on board and say yes right now. And then it was like two years of me just thinking from the morning to night, something happens to a woman. I think when you get this like shift, like this maternal instinct, it just kicked into high gear. And I'm like, this is my only chance. Like, do I want to not be with my husband who I love? And he's my soulmate. Do I want to go off and have a kid by myself? Like I didn't know what to do. So yeah, we were stuck, you know, I mean, spoiler alert,
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[28:01] you got the bump going on, but how did you resolve it?
Liberté Chan[28:05] Um, through many, many conversations, therapy. It took him about, I'd say a year to jump on board. It was baby steps. It was at first, okay, I understand that you want to have a kid. I don't think I can do that right now. And then eventually like the conversation turned into, you know, it would be selfish of me to not give you a child and to make matters even more complicated, he had a vasectomy back in 2006.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[28:38] Oh, wow.
Liberté Chan[28:39] Well, it was not in the cards to reverse the vasectomy, but you can extract sperm. I've learned and you can create embryos that way. So he's like, okay. So basically he came up with the idea of, okay, let's create these embryos and let's see how many we get and then we'll make a decision. And I'm either going to give you a child or why don't we donate these embryos and instead of one child, you know, how many embryos you could get five, you could get eight, you know, these viable embryos. We didn't know how many we would get and we can donate them to people who do want to raise these children. And then at least you'll know that there are children out there
[29:24] that are half you half me. And I thought, okay, okay, I can do that. Like at least, you know, I've done stories on children that are, you know, not living with their biological parents, they're either adopted or whatnot, and they reach out to the biological parents eventually, you know, after they're 18, they're curious. And I thought, okay, if we do this, I'm going to write a long letter to all of these children. And I was just holding onto hope that, you know, if he wouldn't jump on board with allowing me to have his child, at least we would have these children out there and eventually they would come meet us. This long letter that I could share with them about why we didn't raise
[30:04] them.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[30:06] Yeah, what a journey with a journey as two individuals and as a couple.
Liberté Chan[30:12] Yeah, yeah. And then eventually he came to the table one day and he said, okay, I can't do this. I can't raise a child in my fifties and I don't want to do this, but we can donate the embryos. And at that point we had created five viable embryos, three girls, two boys. And I thought, okay, okay, I'm heartbroken, but at least they're going to be out there. And I know that they're going to contact us at one point. So I signed the paperwork. And then for like two weeks, he wouldn't sign the paperwork. And I'm like, what is going on? Like you said, I can't have your baby and now you're not signing the paperwork. So I still have no children out there who are mine.
[30:52] And then we went on a trip to Argentina and he came across this older guy in his seventies and he had an 11 year old son and he thought, okay, if he can do it, I can do it. Gone with their own challenge accepted. After seeing that example, we went back to the hotel room and he's like, I got to tell you something. And then he was like, I want you to have my child. And I was like, Oh my God. Like it was the best night ever. It was so magical. And then we waited a little bit long, like maybe six months after the decision. And then we implanted the first embryo and we both wanted a girl. So we implanted the first girl. And then it didn't work and it broke my heart.
[31:41] Like, it was weird. The HCG was going up, but it wasn't going up enough. So it was like, I was pregnant, but I wasn't pregnant, but like something was there. So I had to get this shot and I don't remember what it was called. But then after the shot, you know, I had to clear it from my body. So that was, I think we tried March of 2024, and then I had to wait until July of 2024 to have the second implantation.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:07] After everything you'd already been through. That's tough. Wait.
Liberté Chan[32:10] And then here we are now.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:11] And then here we are now.
Liberté Chan[32:12] And I'm 30, what? 37 weeks.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:16] Okay. Almost ready to pop. There's a TV magic again. Put it in this oven, bra and you take it out all cooked and ready to eat. Okay. Let's take another little break and when we come back, we'll find out what you have in mind for your birth. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Mama Liberté, 37 weeks pregnant. So this baby's coming soon. First of all, I keep meaning to say, cause you talk about sort of being an older mom for baby number one and your husband being an older dad and the age gap between you. I opened the podcast by saying you're incredibly fit and your husband is also incredibly fit. I don't think anybody would guess your age is not even close by
[33:10] meeting you and both of you have incredible energy and strength and warmth, so it's a really beautiful combination. But outside of what it says on the medical record, you're both super youthful and so it's like the baby's going to have energetic parents.
Liberté Chan[33:28] Moving a lot. She's very active.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[33:30] So I just described the two sets of genes that went into making this kid make sense to me. All right. So a baby's coming, you know, in the next couple of weeks or so. What's your vision?
Liberté Chan[33:41] Oh gosh. Well, I definitely have to come see you every week until the baby comes because I do get a few aches and pains now every so often, and you definitely help you have literally magic hands, but thank you. You know, I digress.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[33:59] What's the plan? Like what's the birth plan? Is that your vision? Like what's your preferences?
Liberté Chan[34:05] Well, the plan is to have a vaginal birth, push her out very quickly.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:11] Okay. What's plan B?
Liberté Chan[34:13] Well, if I need to have a C-section, I'll have a C-section. I'm going to try to hold off from the epidural as long as possible. I want to labor a little bit, you know, at home, I want to labor at the hospital, but whatever's the safest for me and the baby, and I'm not going to be a hero. Like if I need the epidural, if I can't get through the pain, then I'm open to it. I want to create like a safe space in the hospital room. I think I talked to you about this. I want to create like a birth board. I want to have like, you know, just some inspirational words and my parents are both not going to be there. So I'm going to have pictures of them. You know, I've created a playlist and I'm hoping that all of that happens.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:55] What kind of stuff is on your playlist?
Liberté Chan[34:58] Oh, you know, like some cheesy songs, inspirational songs to get me through it. A lot of yoga. I mean, as you know, I'm a huge Yogi. I've been practicing since I was 21 years old. I still practice. I still do inversions.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[35:14] Now at 37 weeks.
Liberté Chan[35:15] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[35:16] Yeah.
Liberté Chan[35:16] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[35:17] We're going to have to post that picture with this episode.
Liberté Chan[35:20] Yeah. I still do handstands, headstands, and you know, I don't think it's for everyone. It's what my body's used to doing.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[35:27] So it feels for me because my body is not used to doing anything like that, but it makes sense for you.
Liberté Chan[35:34] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that's the plan. And then hopefully I can breastfeed without too much trouble. I'm all about hiring who I need to hire to help, you know, lactation nurses. I have a night nurse lined up. I have a postpartum doula. I've taken classes. One of my former yoga teachers and who's also a doula. I don't know if you're ever prepared. Like, I don't think you can be prepared. I think it just happens and something that your body is designed to do.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[36:03] It does. Yes. Well, that's the paradox because in one way you were born prepared. Right. And then another way you feel totally unprepared, but I think we're sort of getting to the difference between innate intelligence and educated intelligence. Innately, you're born with all the instructions, you know, how to fertilize an egg and grow it into a human being, how to deliver the finished product, how to make the perfect food for that finished product. You don't have to think about, like, if I asked you, go, do you know how to make milk? You will have no, probably in your educated mind idea, what are the processes that go involved into eating whatever you eat, probably green
[36:39] leafy vegetables and turning that into breast milk, but your body knows how to do it. Birth is the same way and you know, pregnancy is the same way. So you are totally prepared and completely unprepared at the same time.
Liberté Chan[36:51] Exactly. Exactly. And that's how I feel. And I think one of my biggest fears is I don't want to poop on the table, like I really don't. I know that that's so, so common. And I think the majority of women do that. And I just had lunch with three women who work in news and they're all moms. And I was like, how do I have a vaginal birth and push, but like not poop on the table? My friend says to me, she's like, okay. She's like, I've had two. Here's what you do. You push, like you're peeing, not like you're pooping. And I was like, okay.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[37:25] Who pushes pee?
Liberté Chan[37:28] I don't know.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[37:28] Push pee, pee just flows. It's like plumbing.
Liberté Chan[37:31] I know. I know. So any advice?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[37:33] Yeah, I do have some advice. Well, a few things, number one, I've been to a lot of birth. So I will say that the concern that you have is not terribly uncommon. If people hear that there's poop involved in labor and nobody wants to poop with an audience, you know, and some people are really excited about the birth and that's the thing that just like they can't sleep at night wondering what it's going to be like, and hopefully I won't poop and how can I avoid it? But I'll tell you a bunch of things. Number one, especially if you are unmedicated, right? If you are, I don't really believe in unmedicated birth, I think either we give you meds or you make your own.
[38:11] And the ones you make are pretty cool compared to the ones we can give you. If you're a hysochite and your own oxytocin and endorphins and enkephalins, you may not even know, and you certainly won't care. You'll just be in a different, beautiful planet. And that's just honestly, people just don't even realize. And they just don't care. They're in a different space. That's number one. Number two, generally, when I am aware of poop at a birth, it is not, I don't know what you're picturing. It is not logs of poo after, you know, having overeaten, you know, and finally getting the big gratifying release is slivers of poop that come out.
Liberté Chan[38:50] Okay.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[38:50] And nobody in the room with you, none of the professionals that are working there haven't seen it literally thousands of times expecting it, prepared for it in the hospital. You're generally, if you're in the bed in the hospital, you're generally on like a whole bunch of disposable check sheets. And if any poo emerges, they wrap it up so quickly and throw it out. You sometimes are not even sure if it happened or not. That is just the truth. Now, the other thing is it makes sense to me that the baby, whoever created this human body makes the baby kind of push back a little bit.
Liberté Chan[39:28] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[39:28] Towards your rectum and feels like you have to poop. And then the baby pushes from there forward and comes out more through the front, right? And I think that there's purpose in that, which is that by getting some of the fecal matter that's in the rectum to come through with the baby, the baby gets exposed to all of your bacteria and needs to be exposed to all of your bacteria to start harvesting, cultivating, growing their own healthy bacterial flora. And, um, it's that exposure that gives them the advantage to be able to do that, that they need good bacteria to be able to digest, they need good bacteria to be able to fight off infection. So a whole bunch of things that are going to be beneficial to them to
[40:11] start growing and harvesting that positive bacterial environment, microbiome.
Liberté Chan[40:16] So in the event that my child is exposed to my poop, it's actually beneficial to her.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[40:21] It's a good thing. And I think that's why the system is the baby goes to the back, passes by the rectum and comes out. I think it's supposed to happen. And maybe, I don't know, maybe just maybe knowing that that is not only a natural part of the process, but why it's a natural part of the process, that there's a benefit there. You might even be like change of paradigm and be like, Oh my gosh, was there poop? Hopefully there was poop.
Liberté Chan[40:47] It actually does help with my perspective. Thank you for sharing that. And whoever's listening and fearing the same thing. It's a nice shift in mindset. Thank you. Thank you.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[40:58] My pleasure. I mean, to recap, if you're on Medicaid, you may not even know what happened either way, everybody around is totally prepared for it, not grossed out by it and we'll have it clean in so quickly that again, you may not know what happened or question whether it happened. And then number three is it's not giant logs of poop. It's sliver. And finally, it's beneficial to the baby. It's poop with a purpose.
Liberté Chan[41:22] Who were the purpose?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[41:23] I like that.
Liberté Chan[41:24] This is my new merch.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[41:25] I'm like a little onesie.
Liberté Chan[41:27] Yes. My new merch, poop with a purpose, informed pregnancy, tune in today.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[41:33] Well, you've shared a lot.
Liberté Chan[41:35] I did.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[41:36] And all very interesting and fascinating. Again, never met a meteorologist in person. I even took broadcast journalism classes in college. Yes. There's things about me you don't know. I mean, you are a very multifaceted person. I was a speech and drama major. So there was some journalism and broadcast journalism. I took a class with the person who was an anchor on New York nightly news. Yeah. And she talked in class just like she talked on TV, you know, after the break, we'll come back with homework. You know, I'm like, does anybody have a remote control? But it was an interesting class. Still never met a meteorologist. And we didn't even talk about meteorology, but no, it's okay.
[42:22] I am inspired in multiple fronts, uh, figure skating at five and being an introvert and just getting out there in front of everybody and pushing hard and competing and winning, no doubt. And then also pushing your way into a career that you fell in love with because you wanted to be in that league, you wanted to be in that world with really smart and powerful women who are also fashion forward. You know, we're going to see frumpy weather girls like they're well dressed and then just like, you know, pushing your way in there, powering through a really difficult sort of childhood in terms of not having your dad in your life and then having a dad as a teenager, which is hard.
[43:06] It's hard for teenagers for someone to step into that role and for you to be accepting and not only were you, but he became dad and then losing him and losing your mom and quick succession, losing your dog, which, you know, is hard in general, but during all the other tumultuous things going on, you know, that's a comfort creature for you. And so even harder pushing past all those things and somehow convincing your husband to have a baby with you is all a very, very inspiring story. I appreciate you coming and sharing, and I hope that you have the greatest birth with, you know, slivers of poo and everything you want it to be. I'm on board with your plan that it's, you know, fast and smooth, but the
[43:49] first one just realistically generally isn't fast, but you have endurance. You're used to pushing yourself and cross training in all sorts of different ways. You have the strength for sure. And you have the endurance. So I think you're up for the challenge, whatever it turns into. And you're also open-minded, which is super helpful because you're not rigidly set on one way or another. So I think you're poised for a great birth. I wish you had a better chiropractor, but outside of that, I was fishing for a plug.
Liberté Chan[44:17] You have helped me so much and you're helping me and I'll see you next week.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[44:22] I'm honored. I can't wait. Okay. So we are going to come back after the baby comes and share the birth story. Until then, where can we find you online?
Liberté Chan[44:30] I'm at Liberté Chan.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[44:33] Liberté Chan. And you have all sorts of cool stuff that you post on there. Digital creator is what I was thinking of when I said blogger.
Liberté Chan[44:40] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[44:40] Digital creator. Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[44:46] You finally became a health reporter.
Liberté Chan[44:48] Exactly.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[44:49] Exactly. Very cool stuff. And you're on air as well.
Liberté Chan[44:53] Oh, look at us.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[44:55] It all comes full circle.
Liberté Chan[44:56] It's all coming together.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[44:58] We're multifaceted.
Liberté Chan[45:00] I appreciate the universe we're putting in my life. I'm a better person for knowing you. Thank you so much for letting me share.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[45:07] My pleasure. Thank you again for joining me in at home. Thanks for listening to the informed pregnancy podcast for more pregnancy and parenting information, just like this, visit us online at informedpregnancy.com.
Want more pregnancy + parenting? Start your FREE TRIAL of Informed Pregnancy+ and get access to all our curated pregnancy and parenting content — original series, iconic birth films like The Business of Being Born, prenatal workouts and more.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia was first trained as a lactation consultant and postpartum doula after becoming a mother herself. She shares about motherhood and her female owned and operated equine charity, an organization focusing on rehabbing and rehoming offtrack thoroughbred horses.
“You know, I had such a great experience with a postpartum doula and lactation consult of mine that I just felt that I needed to help women like me that didn't have a lot.”
“if we can breathe and stay present in our bodies and slow our heart rate down, a horse will actually sync up to that. And I'm sure you've just seen this just by being around, but if you had to like, take a deep breath in and take a deep breath out, very often, if you're standing next to a horse, they will in fact mimic that.”
“And so I had to say to him, I was like, just poke it in. Just poke it in. Just poke it in. And like, don't tell me when you're going to do it.”
“I am really good at soldier mode and just like, you know, getting it done.”
“I'm like, what if my hand slips? Like, this is how I die. This is how I go.”
AI-generated transcript with speaker labels — may contain errors, especially names and medical terms. Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC appears in blue; Jaime Lipsky Garcia in orange.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:00] My guest today began her journey of supporting women after becoming a mother herself. She trained as a lactation consultant and postpartum doula before expanding her work to include her first love, horses. Now, she plays a vital role in an equine business and charity that is woman owned and operated focusing on rehabbing, retraining, and rehoming off-track thoroughbreds. She also trains with Willow River Equestrian where she helps scholastic groups, corporate teams, and mental health and wellness programs learn the art of co-regulation through natural horsemanship. And in what might be the most unexpected twist, she absolutely cannot stand belly buttons. I'm Pregnancy Focus Car Director Dr. Ellie Furlan and you're listening to the
[0:43] Inborn Pregnancy Podcast. Jamie Lipski-Garcia, welcome to the podcast. Hi, Dr. V. Thanks for having me again. Oh my gosh, favorite person of mine. Welcome back, I should say, to the podcast. We have an interesting topic today. So let me set the stage for the discussion. We're talking about oomphalophobia, a very real and surprisingly common fear of belly buttons. For some, it's just the sight of them. For others, the thought of them being touched or even just imagining them can trigger a strong physical reaction. Believe it or not, public figures like Khloe Kardashian have openly shared that they struggle with this phobia. So you are definitely not alone. Now, I want to get into because I haven't really come across too many
[1:40] people who talk about it, comes up for me sometimes because we're doing massage when we get to the belly button and all of a sudden, you know, the client turns green or whacks me in the head, whatever suits them. I'm like, what happened there? It's like, don't touch my belly button. But before we get to that, let's get into you a little bit. So I mentioned in the opening, you became a lactation consultant postpartum doula after you became a mom. What
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[2:02] inspired you to take that path? I or my husband didn't have a lot of family that were around us and it truly takes a village. And the experience that I had with the village around me, you were absolutely one of the biggest influences over there. I am one of the village people. You know, I had such a great experience with a postpartum doula and lactation consult of mine that I just felt that I needed to help women like me that didn't have a lot. Or even if they did have a lot, you know, you're given this brand new baby and then you're supposed to do all of these things that are supposed to come naturally and it's ridiculous. It's like, you know, two virgins trying to do something for the first
[2:48] time. It's ridiculous. And then you're expected to do it well. Yes. Now I fully understand. But also, what were you doing before that? I was actually in TV. I was a TV producer on the television show Mythbusters. Okay. So have you joined the two together? Because doulas are often mythbusters. I did kind of join it together and then I just took it one step forward and took that to horses. But yeah, you know, the skills that I think I picked up in producing definitely helped in everything that I've done so far.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:23] Like, yeah, you don't go into a new mom's house and blow stuff up. I mean, it depends. Sometimes they're blowing up at people. Anyway, horses you came back to.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[3:36] So horses were a part of your early life. Yeah, I started riding when I was about four years old. And ever since then, it was just in a huge part of my life. It was in my soul, so much so that like, you know, I remember my teacher in kindergarten asking me what I wanted to be when I grew up. And I said I wanted to be a horse. And the conversation that ensued was like, made me so mad that led to me, you know, standing on my chair screaming, you don't know. So it's been in my blood for a really, really long time. But I competed and I rode, you know, my entire life. But something always felt amiss. And it wasn't until recently that I had found the place that I work with now, Wynn Place Home, the charity.
[4:21] And they had opened my mind and my heart to actually listening to a horse and to explaining to me the why of a horse, which I just feel was just never explained.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[4:32] Nay, was it explained to you? Nay. That's my only pun. Okay. I'll do better. This is so English or Western?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[4:43] Uh, primarily English, but I do fight in Western. But I don't really teach in Western. It depends on what the horse kind of wants. And sometimes Western saddles are easier on a horse's back than what English are when we're first restarting them. I need to talk in my language
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:00] with the whole back thing. So Hunter or Jumper? Neither. I don't know. I really don't know what I'm talking about. You know, my daughter rides in a little lingo here and there and she was on a jumper the other day and it's such a sharp turn. I think she popped a rib out. Oh my gosh. She just popped it back in. Yeah. So I popped it back in. But, uh, yeah, it was like, maybe the other one, maybe you need the Hunter. Well, I mean, look, it's not a gentle sport any way you ride it. Let's be honest. You've seen the injuries and what my body looks like. I've seen your injuries and other people's injuries. And I've seen even my daughter, you know, she definitely, it's a toll on her body. She had a big spook not that long ago.
[5:43] She was riding a different horse than usual. And I forgot what spooked him. And he just took off like nobody's business. And she came tumbling down and she had the vest, the inflatable vest. And it just shot off like a cannon and inflated before she hit the ground and protected her spine. Her helmet was like disaster. Like if that was her head.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[6:03] She needs a new one. Yeah. She got a new one. I was about to say you need one with MIPS. Those vests are absolutely amazing. I have one and I recommend, you know, everybody who rides wear one, but I need to listen to my own advice on that. Cause I'm always like, that's always the thing. Yeah. I was like, Oh, get it. It'll be fine. Like concussion later. Like it's just, yeah, I have a treadmill that works a lot better if you use it otherwise and use it for that purpose, not just hanging. Okay. So tell me about co-regulation. What does this mean? Co-regulation really is just, you know, and I know you're familiar with this is, you know, sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system. Horses are flight animals. And so
[6:47] their whole science and, you know, the whole way they're built is to go, is to act now and ask questions later. And in a way that they can mirror how we are, you know, on the inside. And so I think that if you can co-regulate with a horse by breathing, by being very present in your body, by being very aware of the nonverbal cues that you're giving that you can co-regulate, I guess, with anything, not just, you know, with a horse or 1200 pound flight animal that could snap you like a chicken in five seconds, you know, with your tantruming toddler or, you know, we do a lot of, could also snap you like,
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[7:28] I'm surprised they didn't. I mean, you have like 12,000 children.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[7:32] Yeah, 12,001 since we spoke last. No, no, I'm just kidding. Just only 12,000. 12,001. So, you know, horses will sync up to our breath and our heart rate. So if we can breathe and which is how, you know, we control our heart rates and our nervous system, if we can breathe and stay present in our bodies and slow our heart rate down, a horse will actually sync up to that. And I'm sure you've just seen this just by being around, but if you had to like, take a deep breath in and take a deep breath out, very often, if you're standing next to a horse, they will in fact mimic that. And also just mixing all your passions together, people do use the horse lips in birth to
[8:13] regulate themselves to kind of let everything go. Absolutely. I mean, the breathing that, you know, the breath work that I learned when I was doing postpartum and labor work, all translates through all of that now. So, you know.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:27] I think also like a lot of the energy work and the vibration work for human energy is built on this observation from the 17th century. I think it was a Dutch scientist who saw that if you take two pendulum clocks that are just swinging at different rates and put them next to each other, they'll line up with each other. They'll start to take it the same time. And, you know, that's, I think a lot of the energy work that we do is based on that human energy work. And so for the horses, it makes a lot of sense too.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[8:59] Yeah. It makes a lot of sense with bait, with newborn babies. You know, you often see a mother who's, you know, and I saw this in, you know, lactation, who's frantic and is trying to breastfeed and she just can't get in the baby screaming. And it's, you know, so if you can just be present, slow everything down, co-regulation. As we can tell from this first
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:18] segment of the podcast, you are very easy to talk to and a pretty open book. And that is going to make the next two segments a lot better than if you weren't either of those two things, because it's a weird topic. It's a fear of bell buttons, oomphalophobia, and I
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:34] can't wait to dig in. We'll be right back. Welcome back, Jamie. Enough about that horse flight. Let's talk about the meat and potatoes of today's episode. I think the first time I heard about this was not with a patient who smacked me in the face, but go over it. But that did happen, actually, was somebody else. Was it me? No, no, no, it wasn't you. But we were doing a series called The Real Midwives of Los Angeles, which still streams on Informed Pregnancy Plus. And yes, it just came up like as we were just talking, people share their pregnancy stories and she was talking about hers and she mentioned the thing. And, you know, at first I giggled. I was like, we have belly buttons. That's crazy.
[10:32] Right. And then I realized I am face blind. I have no facial recognition at all. Most absurd thing. And I was like, maybe I shouldn't give them. Maybe she's being serious. And she was not just serious. Like she honestly said that if she had to choose between someone touching her belly button or rape, it would be a tough call. Well, OK, that's dramatic. And I was like, and she was serious as a heart attack when she said it.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[11:02] Yeah, I believe it.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:04] She was like, I don't know which one is mentally worse for me. So it's a real thing. Tell me about for you. Like when did you notice like this might be something that you have or that's different for you?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[11:15] Um, I've never been a giant fan of them. I wasn't even aware this was actually like a thing. And like other people had it. I was today years old when I found out Chloe Kardashian has this. Oh, OK. Look at that. So many things you guys have in common. And it always just grossed me out. It always grossed me out. And then when I had my daughter and, you know, you clip it and all of that stuff, and then it's like there and it's black and it's like about to fall off. I have like the spits right now. I see it coming up. I was like, I actually can't deal with this. What is the quickest way to make this thing go away? Actually, you know, I'm going to strike that before this.
[11:58] I realized when I was pregnant and I had my belly button pierced. Right. And, jeez, you know what? You're taking me down a whole like therapy session here. I think I'm discovering that this is actually going way further back than what I thought it would. I had my belly button pierced when I was 16 years old. And I remember being OK with it. Cleaning it made me want to throw up. I remember that. And then I remember my sister getting hers done and watching it like I thought I was going to die.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:26] Like watching them pierce it or watching someone touching it?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[12:32] Yeah. And then again, fast forward a whole many years. Being pregnant and I had to stick a bandaid over my belly button. You know, when it like pops out at the end, thought of like the little bubble and it like touching clothing. I just like it gets more than goosebumps. It's almost like a skin crawling feeling. And so I had to put a bandaid over it.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:55] When did you realize it's different than other people?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[12:58] I never did until you told me. Oh, right. I do remember having that reveal. Yes, I never knew it was a thing. I just thought, OK, this is just something that you like. Some people don't like feet or do like feet. I don't know. You know, I just thought it was an episode.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:13] It's a totally different episode. But, you know, maybe maybe, you know, there's like the other side of this podcast. Right up until that point, you just thought everybody was like queasy, grossed out, nauseated by looking at talking about touching or seeing somebody else's. Is it seeing somebody else's belly button or only if you see it touch all of it?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[13:35] All of it. All of it. Looking at somebody else's belly button, like I can't even like just the thought of like someone putting their finger. It's so nasty. And I can't explain why.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:47] Can you touch your own belly button?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[13:49] No, I don't want to.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:51] What happens if you do?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[13:53] So when I clean it, I have to like, I don't look and I'm just like, am I doing this? Is it happening?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:58] And then I just read a screenshot of the face you just made. I'm sure you can replay this and find.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[14:04] Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like because I'm a big wimp. It's sort of like when I have my blood drawn and I'm totally looking away with my eyes closed, trying to think about anything else. I remember one time I had a great aunt who came into our house. She was staying at our house and she came to the kitchen. And I was making bread. I was probably like a young teenager. I cooked a lot when I was a kid. I was making bread. I was kneading the dough with my hands. And she came in and she sneezed. And it's the kind of sneeze where the spray comes and starts to perfulate through the room. Like osmosis going on. You just see it like spreading towards you.
[14:49] No, stop. Okay, because this is the other thing that I'm definitely afraid of. Oh, that? Oh, shoot. It's not. Oh, really? Okay. That's another episode there, too, because I had no idea. I have to research before we talk about fear of boogers. I don't have a fear. It was just the grossest thing that happened. And I saw it coming at me and then you smell it. Like you smell somebody else's spray from their sneeze. And then as I realized, my hands were sort of getting coated it. The whole bread dough that I was making had a little coating. And then she sneezed again. And I instinctively threw my hand up because I thought something was coming at me.
[15:28] And it was her dentures. And I caught her dentures in my hand. And I love her. She's the greatest ever. But that one, two combination is what I think about when I'm having blood drawn. So that I'm not thinking about the blood draw.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[15:41] Now, I'm going to think about it when I get blood drawn.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[15:44] Yeah, great. It works every time. Like, oh, you did it. You're done. Great. Because I was just so busy being grossed out about something else. It's probably there's other ways to go on that. But yes, I just shared that story.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[15:57] That was very descriptive.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[15:58] I appreciate you brought in all of the senses. Yes.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:02] That face that you made when you were like, if I have to clean my belly button, I'm just awful. And that's you and your own. So what if somebody else touches that? I mean, at some point, you must have sort of had other people get close to you.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[16:14] This actually came up recently. I probably, I don't know what it is, like nine months ago, I had two tattoos. Well, I had other tattoos. But I had two tattoos put on my stomach on either side of my belly button, kind of.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:26] Did they say, do not touch?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[16:28] I did. I did. I said, no.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:30] Is that what the tattoos say? Is it just that round circle with a line going through the red one?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[16:38] Take X. And it was fine. I told him I work with the tattoo artist a lot. And, you know, we talk when you're getting jabbed for 75 hours. And so he knows, like, don't touch my belly button. And, you know, he's got to put his hand, like, in all weird positions to get to where it is. So I was, like, very clear, like, do not. I don't care, like, what position you have to get in. If you have to hang from the ceiling, you may not. This is the perimeter. And no. And then afterwards, they had to, they, like, wrap it. They put the second skin stuff on it so that, you know, it doesn't get infected and all of it. You're supposed to leave that on for a couple days.
[17:13] And it had to go. And again, asked the assistant who was doing it, I was like, don't touch my belly button. They were like, OK, no worries. But then the wing of the one bird was just close enough that you couldn't, like, you had to have a little bit of margin on the second skin. And it cut. And he cut it just so that there was, like, a little piece that would have gone, like, over my belly button. And I saw this coming. I saw this happening, like, in real time. And I was looking down and I was watching. And I felt, like, my heart go up. And I was sweating. And he looked up at me and he was like, I'm sorry, should we, like, put this in or should I bring scissors to, like, cut it?
[17:52] All of which were not a good solution because it would have touched my belly button anyway. And so I had to say to him, I was like, just poke it in. Just poke it in. Just poke it in. And like, don't tell me when you're going to do it. I'm going to talk. And like, before he finished a second, he had just, like, poked it in. And I threw up in my mouth a little.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[18:09] Oh, gosh.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[18:10] I know. And then I had to pull it off.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[18:12] Oh, I mean, I guess you're running out of real estate. No, it's not what I meant. No, for those tattoos. I'm just saying you probably got down to, I guess I'm going to have to do one over there.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[18:24] Anyway, so, yeah, so that did come up where someone else had to touch it and it was horrifying. It was absolutely horrifying.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[18:30] Before you knew what it was, what about, like, you and just, like, boyfriends and intimacy and partner?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[18:36] Like, why would you touch someone's belly?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[18:38] Well, maybe you didn't know. Maybe that's, like, your jam. It's, like, your jam. No, not your jam, but, like, okay, not poking it, but sort of coming in contact with it.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[18:48] Yeah, so I was always just really, like, I guess, like, looking back and thinking about it now, it was always just, like, really tense whenever anyone was, like, around it. Like, really tense. If it was someone that I didn't, like, yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:01] I mean, do you recall telling people, don't touch my belly button?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[19:05] I recall, like, saying, no, I don't like that.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:08] Okay, that's fair.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[19:09] But again, I didn't know this was such a thing.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:14] Yeah, so when you told other people that they didn't think it was weird, it was just a preference.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[19:18] Well, no, because I don't think I said to them, I'll stab you if you touch it. Do you want to get murdered? It was more of just, like, a long list of, like, if it came up, it came up, like, afterwards, where they were like, hey, what was that about? And it was like, I just don't like people touching my belly button. It was never, like, a thing, I guess. Yeah, I cannot recall one time where, you know, someone actually touched it or stuck something in it or whatever. I was like, no, no, sir. Here's a kick to the head.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:48] Yeah, I think you have a fairly mild case compared to a lot of other people, because-
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[19:52] You know, after hearing the rape or not situation, I'm kind of like, maybe I do. But I know that whenever I spend, whenever you used to, like, when you used to release my psoas and everything, like, I'm sitting there. I'm like, oh God, oh God, oh God. Don't touch it, don't touch it, don't touch it. That's all I can think about in my head.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[20:09] All of these things kind of have a spectrum. Like, I have pretty black and white severe face blindness. Yeah. But I have a cousin who has face blindness and she's decent at recognizing people. But if they change their hairstyle, she has to, like, get used to it all over again. But when she gets used to it all over again, she's good now for a while. But I don't have that. Like, the second I close my eyes, there's nothing left. All of these things are kind of like a spectrum because I have another patient who told me, like, if she, like, during pregnancy in particular, if she would touch her belly button, she would have to call in, like, mental health day for the rest of the day.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[20:43] I feel like that when I had to touch someone else's belly button. So, I feel like— Like being a mom. I feel like touching someone else's is worse than touching my own.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[20:56] That's good. The navel spectrum. Fifty shades of navel? Yeah, fifty shades of navel. The navel spectrum. Okay, so touching somebody else's is worse than touching your own.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[21:07] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:08] Where does somebody else touching yours fit in the spectrum?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[21:11] Also there.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:13] Where?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[21:13] Like, dealing with someone else's belly button. Someone else touching mine probably falls in that same level.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:19] Oh, same. Okay. So, you could touch your own if you look away.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[21:23] These are amazing questions. You know what? I actually have never thought about that before. This is a good question.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:28] I'm going to take a break so we can ponder it.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[21:30] I'm going to ponder this because I actually—
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:31] When we come back, we're going to see if it comes to you. I hate making you think through these scenarios because I see you turning green with every question. I'm literally going to throw up. But yeah, let's take a little break. When we come back, we'll finish up our topic of oomphalophobia. We'll be right back. Welcome back. We're talking about Jamie. She just had some ginger ale to calm things down.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[22:02] I'm literally going to throw up.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[22:04] Yeah. So, we left kind of with you exploring your own self.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[22:07] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[22:08] And this is true. You're one day on the table. Your back goes out from all your jumping, hunting, falling off of horses and stuff, and really breaking them in. I mean, it must be crazy to ride a wild horse like that. And so, sometimes that pull from your deep core muscles on your lower back creates the problem. So, put you on your back and strip through that muscle with deep massage very close to the umbilicus. And then, when you were so weirded out by it, I was like, oh, do you have oomphalophobia? You're like, what's up? And so, here we are. And then, as I started asking you questions about what about during pregnancy? What about when you had the kid?
[22:42] And you were like, ah! You know, I'm sure people are listening to this and puzzle pieces are coming together for them just like they've been for you. But now we're thinking about it deeper. We're doing good work here.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[22:52] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[22:52] We're thinking about it deeper. And we're trying to think, okay, touching your own belly button, you made the face. You looked away. You're like, I could do it if I have to.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[23:00] Right.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:00] Touching somebody else's was a whole new level.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[23:02] Yeah, no.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:03] And somebody else touching yours may be on that level.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[23:07] Yeah. Okay. So, like Sophie's choice, if I had to like touch my own belly button or have someone else touch my belly button, I think that maybe I would have someone else touch my belly button.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:17] Oh, really? Oh, so that pull is lower.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[23:19] Well, I think the reason is every time I wish you could like feel the sweat that is actually on my…
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:26] I could see it happening. I don't see the beads, but I see your reaction, your visceral reaction. It's a visceral reaction.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[23:33] I wish you could feel it. It's the worst feeling ever. Like just thinking about it. But I think that, yeah, Sophie's choice, I think that I would have someone else do it. And the reason, because if I had to do it, I would think about it and all these things would go through my head. I would start preempting like the physical feelings that I have in my body. And then by the time that I actually got to it, it would be so bad. Like, I don't even know if I could do it. Oh, but someone else could just do it. Yeah, I could be talking and then someone could do it. And then I could be like, okay, it's done. I'll throw up now, but it's done. Yeah, so I think that that's it.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[24:07] I think the phobias work that way a lot. Yeah. People. Okay. Do you know other people now that you've learned about it?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[24:14] Well, my sister has some degree of this. She is definitely not as bad as me at all, but she also doesn't love it. Like, it's not like, you know.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[24:25] Does she know about it because you told her?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[24:27] Yes. Yes. I said, Natalie, I was at Dr. B and you don't even know that this is a real thing and it is a real thing. And after we get off the phone here, I'm going to call her. I'm going to tell her that Chloe Kardashian has the same thing. Yeah, she has like a low level of it, but she won't have like a, like she won't die if it happens to her. She won't throw up, but she'll be like, ugh.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[24:49] Now with this in context, I mean, it is a visual reaction for you and having a baby, so they have the umbilical stump and you have to care for it and it's something coming out of the belly button and you still didn't even know you had it. Like it was different for you than other people. Yeah. How did you cope with it? How'd you get through that? I mean, I always say mom can do anything, but how did you do it?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[25:11] I am really good at soldier mode and just like, you know, getting it done. I remember wearing gloves, which everybody thought was a little extreme.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[25:20] Because it was your own kid.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[25:22] Yeah. I think most people thought that I was doing it because I didn't want to get it infected. Really, I just didn't want to get infected. I also bought like, I think they sort of have a version of it here, but I remember my aunt bringing me this like special powder from South Africa. You know, it like dries it out and I swear to God, it cut the healing time by like five days.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[25:45] It changed for you once you learned what it was?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[25:49] No, not at all. It just was something that I can't imagine. It's just like, oh, it's just me. Look, I want to talk to other people because I want to know what their reactions feel like. Because my sister and I compare reactions and mine is a bit of a bigger scale, but like they're pretty similar in the feelings that we get in our body. So I want to know if this is like a common thing.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[26:10] I had someone, she's probably in her sixties.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[26:13] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[26:14] And I realized she has it. She was sort of soldier mode about it too. Like her back was out and I was doing her so as in, I could tell she was getting real uncomfortable. She doesn't have reactions to things. She's very stoic. And so even if I'm digging into a muscle or a tendon that's like really sharp, she just breathes through it and let's go, which is also like you actually. But then I could tell when I was getting around her belly button that she was having a hard time staying calm. And so I asked her about it and she's like, I never like when anybody touches me near my belly button. I'm like, oh, you know, it's a thing called, and she just would not even talk about it.
[26:48] She's like, don't tell me. I don't want to know. I don't care. She didn't want me to say the word belly button. She didn't want me to say, even when she found out means belly button, I couldn't say anymore.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[26:59] I want to throw up when you say it too. Like I couldn't find a better word to call it. They couldn't have found a better word. Like even the word that gives me the spits. Okay. And in Afrikaans, we would call it the krelis, right? They're like the, the heebie-jeebies. Yes, the khakhis. Yeah, you can't hear. I don't want to talk about it.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[27:26] That's a fair reaction, but I want to know what it feels like in her body.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[27:29] So I have a very specific feeling in my body when it happens.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[27:32] You know what? I will right now deeply encourage anybody who's listening, who has this, share with us, send us an email, go on social media and send us a message. Tell us what it feels like and we'll share it with Jamie. Well, and if you want us to, we'll share it with everyone else because I bet it does feel different. And for me, face blindness became a lot more livable. I mean, it was livable, but it was a very confusing life and it got much clearer and much easier to navigate once I started to talk to other people who have it and realize, you know, which parts of my experience in life have to do with me just being a weirdo and which are actually
[28:10] presopagnosia and face blindness and how…
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[28:13] But your mom has it too, right? Your mom…
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[28:16] I don't know if she has it. I'm not sure. My dad was, I think, the exact opposite. He would see somebody who he met 20 years ago and then 20 years later, he's like, oh, how? You know, I'm like, you know, my wife, who I've been with my whole life. I'm like, oh, are you my wife? So it's the exact opposite. My mom, I think, may be weaker with faces. I try to get her to do the test and I think she did mediocre. So I'm not sure. But I have an acquaintance who's a midwife and she has it and her mother has it, her sister has it and her daughter has it. So that can obviously run in families and you and your sister both have phobia. I haven't really done the science research
[28:54] when I did it a while back and there just wasn't a lot on like what might cause it and if there are ways to overcome it. But it's clear to me that it's a spectrum because yeah, I had that other pregnant patient. She said when she would touch it, she would have like a really big emotional release and have to call in a mental health day and during pregnancy because it moved, she'd go button her jeans and touch it and just be like, I gotta be out today and you're gagging even just me talking about it. So yeah, I would love to connect you with other people and also talk to other people. I think this could be the episode, the moment in life that sparks me
[29:31] to do another podcast series and all these weird, I shouldn't call them weird, but it's sort of unique brain things.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[29:37] It is weird.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[29:38] Yeah, sure. We'll go with weird. And then, you know, who knows? I could probably find a way to get Chloe on the horn and see what her experience is like with it as well. So, you know, different things. We all have different things. Well, have you ever done anything to try to overcome it like hypnosis or other things that people do for phobias?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[29:59] No.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[30:00] Would you be curious to try that or just not a big enough thing in your life thing?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[30:04] No, I would love to. I would absolutely be open to it, not feel like I want to throw up every time, like, you know.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[30:11] Because I did send that mom. She was pregnant from the real midwife. She was pregnant. She was going to have a baby. And I was like, how are you going to do this? So I sent her to do a hypnotherapy session and she said it was helpful. I don't remember after the baby came, you know, what it was like for her. But actually, I think we never aired them because life got so busy for her. We never got to film the after birth series, like the episodes after the baby came. But she did say that the hypnotherapy was helpful for like in sort of desensitizing it a little bit or giving her a means of being able to be more functional around it. Right.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[30:48] Sometimes I think about like desensitizing myself. And like, I think, you know, when I clean my belly button, I'm like, okay, this is like desensitization. This is like what we do with the horses. You're going to be okay. Yes, full circle. But I have to pep talk myself for a really long time and maybe even like take it out of it. And then-
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[31:05] I mean, do horses have a belly button?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[31:08] They do. Huge and it's awful.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[31:13] So like when you're cleaning them and stuff?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[31:16] Well, I don't know. I won't do that. But I'll tell you where I think about it the most. So there's an exercise that you do for a horse called the belly lift and that helps engage the muscles on either side of the spine to lift up and to, you know, get into the spine, teaches them to use their core and, you know, stretch the spine and all of that. And to do that, you run your hand and your fingers along the midline of the horses, you know, underneath the stomach. And the belly button is quite far back and it doesn't really look like or feel like, you know, yours and mine. I nearly fainted the first time I looked at a horse. I mean, I assumed that they had one,
[31:54] but I don't really know what it looks like. Absolutely. So sometimes when I'm doing, you know, especially like a horse with like a short back or whatever and I'm like doing this belly lift, I'm like, I'm not going to go too far that way. Or if it moves and then my hand slips and touches it, then I die.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:15] Oh God. Okay. So yeah. And then that's how they became the modified Jamie Lipsky horsey belly lift maneuver.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[32:24] I mean, you can do it without going that far back, but like sometimes I feel like, okay, so I'm doing it now, but like sometimes horses don't like it and they can get uncomfortable and kind of shift if it's really hard for them. Sometimes they'll move. And then I think about this every time they get closer towards the back, I'm like, what if my hand slips? Like, this is how I die. This is how I go. Touching the horse's belly button, this is what gives me a heart attack.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:49] Well, yeah, but again, that gives a sense for the magnitude. It is, it is. Of how intense that is for you.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[32:55] It's the same with my dogs too. Like I will actively like try and see where the belly button is and just like really, and even if I think something looks like a belly button, I don't like that either. That's the other thing.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[33:05] What about drawings of belly buttons?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[33:09] Why would anyone have a drawing of a belly button?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[33:11] I don't know, but you know,
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[33:11] sometimes kids draw people and they draw the belly button. No, I would smack that. I'm sorry, what's a belly button picture?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[33:20] Okay, we're winding down. We're towards the end here. You are always amazing to talk to. And I really appreciate you on this episode because I know that there's a lot of these conditions that people have that they don't even know they have. Like I had face blindness and you had a phobia, sorry for saying it. And there's more. So it could be a spinoff. We might be doing some brain oddities, a whole new series. Is there anything before we sign off, anything that I didn't ask you that you think would be relevant?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[33:52] No, I mean, I can't even think about it because I'm like, don't think about it. My brain has been like, don't think about it, don't think about it, don't think about it.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:00] So it's also kind of interesting because when you just touched your ear first thing, I thought it's not any of the other orifices, right? You have nothing with ears or nose or mouth.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[34:09] Nothing.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:10] Just that one.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[34:11] Yeah, like nothing. Just that one.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:13] That one specifically. So interesting. All right, well, you've inspired me to do some more homework on it and see if we've come up with more about what may cause it. And I don't know if there are remedies for it. I'll report back.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[34:26] Yeah, I want to know why I'm like this.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:30] Thanks a million for joining me.
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[34:32] Of course, Dr. B, thanks for having me again.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:35] Jamie, where can we find you online?
Jaime Lipsky Garcia[34:37] So you can find anything to do with horses, with me and horses, if you have questions or if you want to come out and volunteer or if you're interested in clinics or riding or co-regulating non-belly button related things, you can find me at winplacehome.org or at winplacehome Instagram or willowriveraquestrian.com or at willowriveraquestrian on Instagram. I will be there. Win Place Home.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[35:03] Win Place Home. Thanks again for joining me and at home thanks for listening to the Informed Pregnancy Podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a moment to subscribe and leave us a five-star rating and share us with your friends. For more pregnancy and postpartum content just like this, visit us online at informedpregnancy.com.
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Hehe Stewart is a doula, educator, and the founder of one of the most engaging birth communities online. In short, her goal is to empower women in medical settings. Today’s conversation will help you feel more confident about advocating for your own preferences, reducing the risk of unnecessary interventions, and switching off people pleasing so you can own your birth space.
“you don't need permission from your medical team. You are your permission. You are the authority over your body.”
“Number one, people pleasing is self-sacrifice. So somebody's will will be done at your birth. It can either be yours or it can be the hospital.”
“Number two, self-advocacy is a skill. It's like a muscle. It must be worked out. It must be practiced to become strong,”
“Remember, this is an invite only event and so an invite can always be rescinded. You can always take that invite back”
“you will never know birth like I know birth but I will never know your partner like you know your partner and together we will be an unstoppable team for your birth”
AI-generated transcript with speaker labels — may contain errors, especially names and medical terms. Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC appears in blue; Hehe Stewart in orange.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:00] In today's episode, we're diving into a critical conversation about what it really takes to have an empowered, positive birth experience in the hospital setting. My guest is a doula educator and founder of one of the most engaging birth communities online. Her focus is helping parents make confident, informed choices during pregnancy birth, and especially in medical settings that can often feel rushed or disempowering. We'll explore how to advocate for your preferences, reduce the risk of unnecessary interventions, and shift from people-pleasing to truly owning your birth space. I'm pregnancy-focused chiropractor, Dr. Elliot Berlin, and you're listening to the Informed Pregnancy Podcast.
[1:53] Heehee Stewart, welcome to the podcast.
Hehe Stewart[1:55] Hello, thanks for having me. Such an honor to be here.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:59] First of all, you're an amazing person, and I wanna get into a lot of different things because you don't have kids, but you've been supporting people having kids for like a decade in a very passionate way, and I think that's really cool, and I wanna find out more about that, but I have to start with the first question. How'd you get the coolest name ever?
Hehe Stewart[2:19] Oh, so my real name is Haley Elise. It's a hyphenated name, and when I went to college, it transitioned to H-E, and then it transitioned again to Heehee, and then my early, early, early career was actually with children on the autism spectrum, and we found that nonverbal children would say Heehee, and I was like, well, that sticks, and so then I went to grad school as Heehee, and my business became tranquility by Heehee, and so now I'm just Heehee.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[2:46] I mean, not just Heehee. You're Heehee, and Haley Elise has a lot to say again and again, so I like it. It is. All right, so we talked about this. We established you don't have kids, but you are in the birth space. What drew you into that world?
Hehe Stewart[3:01] Yeah, so beyond my career in working with children on the autism spectrum, I was in early childhood in general, and part of that career was in the infant classroom, and I did part of that time in the state of Alabama and part of the time in the state of Massachusetts, and in both places, I felt like parents would come with a lot of emotion. There was a feeling of relief, like, okay, I'm getting a little bit of my normal life back, and I'm gonna put my child in childcare, and there was a little bit of angst and anguish of like, oh, this is essentially a stranger. I mean, obviously they're accredited programs, so these people are safe, but I don't really know this person,
[3:41] and there was a sense of sadness of, while I'm ready to get some of my life back, I'm not necessarily ready to hand my baby over, and I'm gonna miss the mom at work at eight hours a day, and I realized that there has got to be a better way, and when I looked into it, I realized that that actually started in pregnancy. It actually started in prenatal care, and that if we were really going to help parents have a better postpartum experience, it couldn't start after birth. It couldn't start after their baby arrived. It had to start, not even in labor itself. It had to start months before that, so I took a doula training, and I realized, wow, with my master's degree,
[4:22] this was just like the final puzzle piece that I had been looking for, so I left the classroom shortly after that, like within 18 months, and while I was finishing up my time in the classroom, I had started my business, and what actually drove me out of the classroom was my business had just taken off so much, and I think that the approach that I use is very different than most people, and the demand was there, and I thought, okay, I think I'm onto something. I'm gonna take this leap of faith, and I was so young, and you're poor, and you're young, and so I thought, well, if I'm already poor and young, I might as well just take this leap of faith.
[4:54] What's the worst that can happen, and it turned out amazing, and so here I am a decade later, and I've been honored to be in thousands of births and to help people have really positive hospital experiences in a system that, at the end of the day, it's really not designed for autonomous births.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:12] Now I understand a lot of the passion, and what a great discovery, like understanding and discovery that early on to realize that the effect on the child starts so early, and that you can have a much better impact if you get involved at that level than once they're already here, and also I would just say that I think Alabama had a bigger impact on your accent than Massachusetts.
Hehe Stewart[5:33] You know, it's one of my things that I love about myself is that I haven't lost my Southern accent, and I hope that it never goes away.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:40] I don't know, it just makes me hungry for fried things, but enough about that. So now how did that evolve? Okay, great, so you do a doula training. I mean, doulas are incredible, but the training is not like, of all the people on the birth team, it's probably one of the smaller trainings in terms of didactic curriculum. How do you develop from that into all the things that you do now, which is a lot?
Hehe Stewart[6:03] Yeah, so I realized very quickly, sitting in the training, so the training that I took was just a four-day training. It was two weekends back to back, a Saturday and a Sunday, eight hours each, and I felt like it was not comprehensive, but rather complimentary to the master's degree that I already had, and so in that training, they said meet with your client once or twice. Well, I started out meeting three times, and I found that those three meetings would be two hours long, and I was exhausted afterwards, and I felt like I had just overwhelmed my clients, so then I moved to four meetings, and then I moved to six meetings, and then I moved to eight meetings,
[6:39] and now my team meets with our clients 10 times. Most of our clients are signed up with us by about 12 weeks, so we spend the duration of your pregnancy with you, and postpartum, kind of a similar story. At first, I said, well, we'll just stay with you for 30 days, and then it moved to 60 days, and now on our very base package, every single person who births with us gets 90 days postpartum. We're also a concierge service, so our clients have 24-7 access to us, and that truly does mean 24-7, and we have about a two-hour return rate, so if you text us in about two hours, you can expect one of my team members to text you back, and then that would, I think, be the final thing,
[7:17] is we don't work in a traditional doula setup, meaning that we have a singular doula and a backup. When you hire our team, you actually have three doulas that work with you. We are our only birth team, so it's not an on-call schedule at all of your 10 prenatals. It is all three of us on all of your concierge lines. It is all three of us. When we come to your home for your prenatals, it is all three of us, so we do things really differently that comprehensive care was really important to me because I found that in the hospital system, it's something that's missing. You have that ever-evolving door of providers. The gap in terms of you show up to the hospital
[7:57] and the on-call doctor is someone you've never met. Well, we know that that is going to slow labor. We know that's gonna put you in fight or flight, and so I figured that if we could at least have your partner be a solid face that you know, love, and trust, and then one of your doulas is someone that you know, love, and trust, and you never have the option to have a doula that shows up to you that you've never met before as a backup, then we could reduce the impact of that ever-evolving door of providers that you may or may not have ever met in the hospital system, and the same goes for your nurse. You know, you get a nurse. You probably have never met them.
[8:30] You get used to them. They're with you for 12 hours, and then they're like, okay, I'm gonna see you, and if you're here tomorrow, I might see you again, and you get a brand new nurse, and so I really tried to mitigate that risk of impacting labor in a negative way by increasing the number of people in the room that you already had a deep, solid relationship with, and we have found that it works really well. Does it work 100%? No. Anytime you introduce a new face voice energy to the birth space, we see a little bit of a hit, but it's not nearly as much of a hit as I think other people experience if you don't have that setup of a team that you have spent the last six, seven months with.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:13] A really innovative approach, and I could see why it's so successful and makes somebody feel extra supported, I think generally makes someone feel pretty supported, and it is that one person that you interview and pick, and they're with you continuously, ideally from beginning to end, but your approach magnifies that to the next level. It's really great. I wish it was available for other types of healthcare, not just birth. Okay. Yeah. I want to, in this episode, because we talk a lot about birth planning and how you want the vision of your birth to go, and one of the things that we talk about at the very, very, very beginning is picking your setting and picking your providers,
[9:53] and oftentimes you realize, based on the vision that somebody has, they're going to be best off realizing that goal if they do it outside the hospital, but for various reasons, they will not do it outside the hospital either they don't have the option to or they don't feel like they can. They want the medical safety blanket sort of being at the hospital, and so one thing that I think is lacking in our 450 plus episodes is really trying to think through a hospital birth and ways to empower yourself and have a great empowered birth with the vision that you want catered to and played out the way you want it to in that setting. So you have a wild amount of experience.
[10:32] You're one of those guests who I realized immediately, I'm not going to have enough time to get through everything I want to get to. I want to know what it was like the first time you went through a birth, you know, and that could probably be a nice long story. I want to know like things that you've seen in birth that surprise you, but all I could say at this point is you've been to a lot of birth, you've had your hands in tons of birth, and you've gone from providing that type of doula care also to doing a tremendous amount of what we do or like puzzle pieces in terms of information and empowerment through information. So I'm going to take a little break,
[11:07] and when we come back, I'm going to dig into two lines of questioning. One is about the work that you do that's more empowerment-oriented, information-oriented, and then using all of that, your experience and your knowledge to help us figure out how to plan for a more empowered hospital birth. Don't go anywhere, we'll be right back with He-He Stewart.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:40] Welcome back, we're talking to Haley Lee Stewart. So many questions, okay. We're going to get into hospital birth and have a plan for an empowered hospital birth and a good experience in the hospital, but before we get there, so you start this very innovative approach to doula care, and then you move into things like the BirthLounge. Tell me about that.
Hehe Stewart[12:00] Yeah, so the BirthLounge is an online childbirth education course where it really originated the year before COVID. So in 2019, I was having a ton of people down south. So I grew up in Mississippi, I went to grad school at the University of Alabama. And so, you know, for more than half my life, at that point, I had only been in the North for three or four years at that point. And I had so many people asking how they could work with me in the South, even though I lived in Massachusetts and I didn't have an answer, I didn't know. And so I actually began to offer virtual doula services before virtual doula services were even a thing. And yeah, I got a lot of pushback, believe it or not.
[12:41] People were incredibly critical of that decision. And people would say things like, well, you can't be a doula if you're not there. And I just didn't believe that. I knew that I could make a difference. And so I had a whole slew of women that hired me from the South and I did not travel down to their birth and we would FaceTime. And I would say, take a computer or a phone or an iPad and I will FaceTime you and I will be your doula. And I realized that if I can get the proper training in you before your birth occurs, your partner is more than capable of being your doula and I can be there to kind of guide you through that virtually. And that's how that originated.
[13:17] So then 2020 hit and I thought, ah, now I have to put this in a course for everyone. And now we have people all over the world in other countries and it's just really fascinating. And in the birth lounge, I talk about what other countries do and it gives our American members a good idea of a global view of different things. So for example, breach birth, which is more widely accepted in other countries, we talk about that in the birth lounge or vaginal birth after C-section. VBEC is the primary after a C-section in some other countries where in the US that's not always the case. And so it is much more of a global look so that you can truly have the whole picture
[14:00] so that you can go to your provider and say, I know this is an option. I'd like to talk about that. I'd like to explore what that might look like for me. And it really teaches you advocacy skills, which I feel like is missing in a lot of childbirth education classes. They wanna teach you what your options are, but then when you get into the hospital, you're often railroaded with the idea that hospital providers are not always open to having these discussions. And so inside the birth lounge, I am teaching you how do you take control of those conversations? And even if you're met with resistance from medical staff, how do you move through that to stay in control of the decisions that are made
[14:35] and advocate for yourself?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:37] This is extremely important. I think doctors too, who we both know, he calls hospital birth, childbirth education classes, on how to be a good patient. It actually is. And they are, they're very skewed. And the hospital near us, they try to be more friendly to do this over the past several years and more accommodating to different birth plans, but with limited success. I mean, also Dr. Stu says like in 10 years, now you can have clear fluids while you're in labor, not just ice chips or that awful sponge that they rub around the inside of your mouth. So they're trying and they're moving perhaps in a decent direction in some ways, but at a snail's pace.
[15:15] So when you talk about advocacy, self-advocacy, obviously that's gonna be much more important in the hospital than at home. In the hospital, it's constantly, my observation is that you're always asking them for permission to do things. Can I do this? Can I do that? Can I go pee? Can I eat this? Whereas at a home birth, anybody who's around you is actually the opposite. Do you mind if we use this towel? And it's a totally different shift on empowerment. And you don't really have to advocate at home, but at the hospital, you really do. So tell me more about that. What kind of tips do you give? How do you prepare people for that?
Hehe Stewart[15:51] Yeah, I think it all starts in pregnancy too, right? Like your communication starts in your prenatals. You should be having these conversations well before you are in labor and making sure that these things are making it into your medical chart. Having a birth preference sheet. So we talked previously about a birth plan. I prefer not to use the word plan because it's very hard to plan birth, but just your preferences. These are the things that I prefer to happen in labor. I also teach a plan A, B, and C. So if I can't have plan A, here's a plan B. That's my preference if plan A is not available. And then a plan C is for a C-section, whether it's scheduled or emergency,
[16:26] or just necessary, but not an emergency. Here are my preferences in all of these scenarios. And then I love that you say, can I do this? Is it allowed for me to do that? In the birth lounge, I teach you to be in charge of that. Instead of saying, can I eat this granola bar? You would simply say, I have this granola bar and I'm going to eat it. If that is something you need to know in my chart, please do it. Would you like to see the ingredients before I eat it? So you're not asking for permission. It really empowers you to remember that you are a grown adult. And with the right information and education, you don't need permission from your medical team.
[17:05] You are your permission. You are the authority over your body. This medical team is there as a guide. They are your confidants. They are your teammates, but you are the boss. You're the captain of that team. And if at any point you are concerned about something or you are second guessing, or you want more information, then you've put together your team. You have your partner. You have your OB. You have your nurse, your midwife, your doula. But you at the end of the day are the only person that can actually make that decision for you. In the birth lounge, I teach something called the red ball theory. And you will see me have a red ball and that is the red ball of control.
[17:46] And so you walk into your labor and you say, I don't want pitocin. And you'll see the doctor snatch that red ball from you and say, well, it's hospital policy. So you have to have it. And you don't necessarily snatch it back, but you gently reach out and you take the red ball and you say, I understand the hospital policy, but I'm not consenting to that right now. I would rather wait and see if my body is able to do contractions on their own. I would rather wait and use nipple simulation to see if I might be able to elicit my own oxytocin before we start pitocin. And you might see the doctor snatch it out and say, well, you're not allowed to do that.
[18:26] And you very gently, again, not snatching, reach out and take that red ball of control and you can just tell your doctor, I really understand your hesitation, but right now I'm not consenting to pitocin. And so it really does teach you how do you navigate these conversations when you are being railroaded, steamrolled by your medical providers who are showing inflexibility where you know that's not your responsibility and you still hold the authority, you still have the power over your birth.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[18:57] That was some of the most important empowering information I think we've gathered on this podcast in the past 10 years. The red ball makes so much sense. I'm so curious when that came to you. And it's so true. Like everything that's done in a hospital setting is sort of designed to make you feel like you don't have the red ball. We have the red ball. And the way you dress, like your doctors are gonna be in those nice lab coats and you're in this oversized unisex hospital mumu with snaps that kind of don't really come together. And if there's a gust of wind, you're exposed to everybody. That's not empowering. So if it gives them the red ball, just by the way you're dressed.
[19:37] And by the way, you don't have to dress that way. That's just how they want you to dress. It's so empowering. I'm never gonna forget the red ball. That's really great way to think about it. And the other thing that you said that's really important to me is that you can't start doing this once you're in labor is a buildup. And I think one of the most important things, especially if you're gonna give birth in the medical system at a hospital with a medical doctor is to make the choices to the extent that you can on who that doctor is gonna be and what that setting is gonna be, what that facility is gonna be like and what kind of roles they have and what kind of grip they're gonna have
[20:11] over red balls that are important to you. So what kind of advice do you give to people early on thinking about who's gonna be the right doctor for me, what's gonna be the right hospital?
Hehe Stewart[20:20] Yeah, I think knowing what's important to you and what is a priority to you is the first place to start. And then you wanna go into your prenatal appointments. And I always recommend interviewing different doctors, but you're not asking them, are you okay with X, Y and Z? Instead, you're asking them open-ended questions. How will you support me if I choose to eat in labor even though the hospital policy says I can't? How will you support me in unmedicated labor? How will you support me in going past my due date, even though I understand the recommendation is to be induced at 39 weeks or to not go past 40 weeks? You want to know how flexible this provider is
[21:02] and it will also give you a lot of insight into their philosophy about your own personal autonomy. What we wanna stay away from is providers who believe that they have authority over you. And so you'll hear this in their language if they say things like, well, that won't happen because we don't allow patients to go past their due date. Well, I hate to say it, but no one allows you to do anything. Remember, you're the authority. You allow yourself. So if you have the information and the education, you feel okay with the risk and you feel okay with the benefits and you feel comfortable going past your due date, then you very well can go past your due date.
[21:38] You wanna have a provider who, even though if their personal recommendation is to go at 39 weeks or to be induced and not go past your due date, they still support your autonomy and say, you know what? If that's something you're comfortable with and through our conversation at the end of your pregnancy, you know, you and your baby are looking safe, then I support that. I hope that you would be open to me coming back to you with a conversation if I ever was concerned about you or your baby's health and safety. Of course, there's not a mother out there who wouldn't want their doctor to, you know, re-approach them with new information if they were concerned about something.
[22:13] You want to avoid providers that say things like, I don't allow you to, you can't do that. The hospital policy says you can't do this or aren't allowed. You are the only one that makes decisions for yourself. And so I think their language is gonna give you a lot of insight into how they think about you as a patient and your rights to making decisions over your own body.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[22:37] Of how you present that information. I really honestly want to take your class, the birth lounge.
Hehe Stewart[22:44] Come on in.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[22:45] Are you still, by the way, doing virtual doula work? Not that I'm planning to have a baby, but.
Hehe Stewart[22:49] Yeah, yes we are. We do virtual and in-person in the New England area and we also have travel services. So actually currently at the time of this recording, I'm with a family in Mississippi.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[22:59] Oh, no kidding. Oh, that's awesome. And what's the format of the birth lounge?
Hehe Stewart[23:04] Yeah, so it's all online videos and you're on pace and nothing is drip content. So from the minute that you enter, you have full access to everything. That way you can really pick and choose what you, you know, consume and how you put together your birth. It really is, you know, it's a DIY. You have all the information and you get to consume it. I do have templates for a lot of stuff, but you're under no obligation to use my templates. I just find that a lot of people find them helpful, but you're absolutely in control of making your own preference sheet, consuming whatever information you want. And we have two live calls each month. One with just me.
[23:43] It's a Q and A and informational session. Then we also have an expert in every month to talk about variety of topics and members are able to put in information that they would like to see. So we have sessions and modules on anything and everything that you can think of.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[24:00] Really special. I do want to take a break, but before we get there, two things. Number one, you said something that really resonates with me having been in the hospital with supporting clients and labor many, many times, which is that you say, I'm going to eat this granola bar now. And if you need to note that in my chart or something like that, just feel free to do so. Look, the same hospital that's trying to be a little more outgoing and open-minded to various birth plans did an outreach program for doulas and they had a liaison between them and the doula community. And I thought that was a constructive step. And one of the things that that liaison said,
[24:37] and she's a doula, is that part of what you have to be aware of is if you buy a hospital ticket, you're going to go on a hospital ride. So sure, within that framework, you can definitely push for what you want, even if it's not in their comfort zone, but you are in a hospital ride and sort of have to be aware of that. So they have certain ways of doing things that are in their comfort zone, not because they're bad people, but it's just how they do it. And one of those things is there's liability, which is risk to them that doesn't necessarily mean risk to you as a patient. And they're guarded over their liability constantly. And that sometimes means things
[25:17] that are not necessarily in your best interest are done or things that are in your best interest are not made available to you. And what you're saying is, I will assert that I will be the choice of the one who decides what's in my best interest. And that leads me to two things. Number one, when you say it that way, you sort of give them the out that they need, which is like, yes, if I'm gonna eat this granola bar, if you need me to sign that, I'm eating it against medical advice. And that's what's gonna protect you from liability down the road, then I'm giving the permission to do that. But I gotta eat this granola bar right now. And I think that's a really beautiful way
[25:52] of asserting, taking the red ball, asserting yourself in doing what you want to do, what you need to do, what your inner voice is telling you to do. And at the same time, sort of diffusing some of the conflict by just saying, I know that it's not your policy and I know that you need to mark me as that patient and go ahead and do it. We can still be friends. That's really important. The other thing is when you're picking that doctor early on, if you do interview several doctors, I think the best case scenario is when you find a doctor that's really on the same page as you, that's really ideally at least tolerant, but even more so supportive of the kind of birth
[26:27] that you wanna have and the choices that you're talking about early on in theoretical terms, because obviously they haven't happened yet. Because at the end of the day, I love going to a birth where when the doctor's like, I really recommend doing this intervention now, you don't need to start questioning them at that point. Like how necessary is this intervention? Why are you pushing this intervention on me? But because you've pre-talked about it and you trust them, then you're gonna go along with their recommendation. Obviously they're gonna give you the choice, but you're gonna take the choice and go along with it when it's necessary. I think that when you're totally not on the same page
[27:03] and there's a tremendous lack of trust, you sometimes end up in dangerous circumstances where that intervention really is necessary for your health or the baby's health or both. But there's such a doubt that there's a delay and a resistance that could end up creating problems for you. So much better to do the homework at the beginning and ask the questions. I love the way you formulated those questions. I am gonna take the non-drip birth lounge class myself because I'm already learning so much from you in just two segments. We're gonna take a break and then we're gonna come back for segment number three. I think we need to address something that I've heard you talk about before,
[27:40] which is people pleasing. I know I'm averse to conflict. I don't really like it and I'd like to be a people pleaser. And when you have your baby is a terrible time to be a people pleaser. How do you work those two out? We'll be right back with He-He Stewart. Welcome back. We're talking to He-He. I was just telling her during the break, one of my favorite guests ever. We're definitely gonna have to have you back for more He-He. So before the break, we talked about people pleasing. I know that I don't like conflict. I've run away from conflict. I shrivel up and go into my turtle shell when there's conflict. And we're talking about, so I want to have the baby at the hospital
[28:26] or I need to have the baby at the hospital. And I wanna assert myself in all these different ways, but they have all those policies. So there's conflict in the air. And I know that a lot of patients like me want to just not be the one who creates conflict and just go along with the flow and be the people pleaser. And then they sometimes suffer the consequences for that and wish that they had the spine, so to speak, to assert themselves. How do you suggest that people prepare for that?
Hehe Stewart[28:53] Yeah, I've got two thoughts on this. Number one, people pleasing is self-sacrifice. So somebody's will will be done at your birth. It can either be yours or it can be the hospital. So if you're going to be a people pleaser, then you are self-sacrificing yourself and your wants and your desires and your preferences. And I highly urge you not to do that because you're the only one that has to live with the birth outcomes that happen in your birth. Number two, self-advocacy is a skill. It's like a muscle. It must be worked out. It must be practiced to become strong, which is also why I say practice this in your prenatals. If you don't do well in a prenatal,
[29:33] you see your doctor in a month or in two weeks or maybe at some point in your pregnancy next week and you can always revisit that conversation. You can re-practice that skill. So go ahead. You have been given nine, 10 months of pregnancy. Take those nine, 10 months to practice that skill of self-advocacy. And I wanna remind you that this doesn't just happen within the birth space in terms of your prenatal care or in the hospital. It happens with your mother-in-law. It happens with your neighbor. It happens with the people on the street. It happens with setting boundaries with your partner and sharing your preferences with them helping them understand what role you would like
[30:10] for them to play in your birth. Your self-advocacy skills should be worked out in many ways in your life, even as simple as you're going to get a massage. Your massage therapist says, is the pressure okay? And in your head, you're going, no, this is a little rough. But you say, yeah, it's fine. That was a great way for you to say, no, it's a little bit rough. I'd like for you to lighten up just a little bit. Go ahead and practice that. When you're getting your nails done and they say, do you like the color? And in your head, you go, oh, no, I thought it was gonna be totally different. But you say, yeah, it's fine. Don't do that. Take these small opportunities that are low risk.
[30:56] The risk that that nail lady gets mad at you is so low. It's probably not gonna happen. And at the worst, she's gonna roll her eyes, take off the color you don't like and repaint your nails, right? Your massage therapist is asking you because they genuinely want you to enjoy the massage. Take these small opportunities to practice and flux that muscle and build it because it is a muscle that has to be practiced. And then every time you go to say something that you don't mean, I want you to know that you're choosing that other person's comfort over possibly your health and safety. And so start to remind yourself of that. I deserve to be safe and healthy
[31:38] over this person's discomfort because self-sacrifice is definitely not serving you in pregnancy and birth. So start to advocate for yourself.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[31:49] I'm so glad you went down that path to other applications of it because again, I'm a people pleaser and I would definitely be the one who will be like, it's good and I do massage like 10 hours a day. And I'm constantly asking, how's this pressure for you? And you can hear in the voice that it's not good, it's too much, but they don't wanna say it. It'll be like, it's okay. I'm like, a little too much. Yeah, it's a little too much. I'm like, okay, you could just tell me that. And I get it because on the other side, I'm that same person. I don't want to put anybody out. And my kids will be like, dad, can you get me more ketchup packets? I'm like, I guess so.
[32:25] Hi, can I have some more ketchup packets? Yeah, I'm here, I'm the customer. I need more ketchup. Why not? And you're right.
Hehe Stewart[32:34] And you're paying for it.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:35] Yeah, so first of all, you're my new therapist. And also it's true, it can't happen overnight. It's gotta be something that you practice and you do consciously. And I think it will make life a lot better. And you really said something like somebody's preference is going to be realized and it's either yours or theirs. And I think now that you're putting it in that phraseology, I think that oftentimes you end up in a situation that leaves you traumatized because you didn't express what you want and you weren't asserted about what you want. In life in general, maybe you end up bruised from that massage and more sore than you started. But in birth in particular,
[33:20] there is a lot of birth trauma. And I think if anybody goes back and looks over how they ended up there, they're gonna find areas where they could have been more assertive about decisions, things that they wanted or felt like they needed and didn't express or didn't push for. How do you handle birth trauma?
Hehe Stewart[33:39] Yeah, this one is tough because we know from the data from the CDC that about 80% of birth trauma is avoidable, right? It doesn't have to be that way. When we look at the listening to mother survey or even from Dr. Dancy's birth trauma research, we know that the majority of research does come from being ignored, silenced or sloughed off by your medical providers. So even when women are speaking up for themselves and they're being overridden by their birth team, that is a significant cause of birth trauma. In these cases, I always remind women that you can sign an AMA like what you mentioned earlier, but also two very pivotal words and it's just two.
[34:24] One is no and one is stop. Having someone by your side too can be really pivotal. So if you have a really educated and confident partner, but if your partner is not confident or they maybe get a little uncomfortable in medical situations, think about having a doula. You can always fire a doctor, you can fire a nurse, you can fire them in your labor, you can fire them while you're pushing. If someone is not respecting what you are saying, if they're not respecting your nose, if they're not respecting your request, if they are not respecting your preferences, if they are not respecting your autonomy or your wishes to just be an active participant
[35:05] in your care, then they are not worthy of being in your birth space. They don't deserve to be there. Remember, this is an invite only event and so an invite can always be rescinded. You can always take that invite back and swap it out with another person. So birth trauma unfortunately is on the rise in our country and I think there's a lot of things that we could do to reduce that. One of those, and I hate it, I hate it so much that the onus is on the woman, the birthing person, her partner, it's on that family where it really should be on the medical system. People should be able to go into the hospital and not only know but expect that they are going
[35:50] to be well cared for, respected and done so in a compassionate way. Unfortunately, right now with the current medical system that we have, that's just not the majority of experiences and so I think that we have a long way to go. I am hopeful that we can get there. I know I maybe stand alone in that. Not a lot of people share in a lot of hope that I have but I do think that our medical system is trying, although out of snow pays like what you say. I think the more that women wake up and the more that birthing people start to demand better, we will eventually just call the hand of the hospital system and they'll be forced to do what we say. If enough people say, I am going to eat
[36:35] this granola bar, feel free to note it in my chart, then eventually the medical system will say, our policy says that you shouldn't eat in labor but of course we recognize that if you're hungry and you choose to, we just ask that you let us know what you're eating so we can make a note.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[36:51] I share the optimism, although I think it'll take a long time to get there but I think when you look at other things like even breastfeeding and how pharmaceutical companies came out with new and improved formula that they worked hard to market as better than your milk formula and it almost went to a point where people judge for breastfeeding, like why would you give them that if we have this new and improved formula? You can't do that very long before women realize, no, my milk is better and band together and push through to the top again and at the end of the day the hospital is a business so they are limiting your choices sometimes because of liability which is a business decision
[37:35] but I think one of the reasons the hospital here has become more open and reaching out to try to work together with the dual community is because so many people decided to have birth at birthing centers and home birth and with that vote they see their business leaving and so they have to adapt and the more that happens the more you might be able to have what you consider the best of both worlds, have your autonomy and have your choices respected and not have to advocate nearly as much in the hospital setting and get that medical safety blanket that you want without making a big sacrifice to get it. When it comes to advocacy you said sometimes your partner is well-educated,
[38:13] sometimes your partner is a great advocate, sometimes your partner is afraid to ask for ketchup so luckily we have doulas. How do you see the role of the doula as it relates to advocacy?
Hehe Stewart[38:23] Yeah, I wanna mention here that I do have a dad days course, it's D-A-Z-E and it is meant specifically for male partners to learn how to advocate in the hospital system especially if you're someone who is uncomfortable in those settings because I found that that was so many stories is that women were coming to me saying, I wish my partner had done X, Y, and Z and the partner would say I didn't know that I needed to and I didn't even know how to and so I created a dad days course. In terms of the doula I always describe it to our clients as an A-B role and so sometimes your partner will be playing the A role, they will be doing hip squeezes and they will be verbally giving you mantras
[39:03] and they will be rubbing your shoulders and then your doula might be playing a B role, they might be picking up your labor room, refilling your water bottle, filling up the birth tub or emptying the birth tub, blowing up the birth ball to get you into your next position but then there are gonna be times where your partner is very either uncomfortable or they just need a break sensory wise, they are just exhausted and you might send that partner out to refill the water bottle, go get some chicken nuggets at the cafeteria and go walk around outside to just get some fresh air and then your doula will resume the position of that A role. When the partner comes back,
[39:39] it's usually very seamless if you've been working with your doula for a long time and you know them very well but that partner and that doula can swap out and if the partner is ready to resume the A position then they can but sometimes they come back and they're still not ready and so maybe they just sit and they're still telling you, honey you look amazing and you're doing great but they're not right there in your space or maybe they do take a little nap and you and your doula are closed up in the bathroom and the lights are off and you have these tea light little candles going and you are just laboring and your doula is doing nothing but holding space,
[40:15] she's not talking, you don't need her to be pressing on your body, she is just simply there and your partner is just making sure that no one comes into that bathroom, no doctor, no nurse, no cleaning staff, no anesthesiologist, no nobody comes into that room without going through your partner first and your partner is that first line of defense and if they can answer the question then there's no need for that person to come in and maybe that mom has said, I don't want anyone to come in for the next hour, I really need some time and so no matter what you need, unless that mom or baby is in danger, that partner holds steady and says, you're not going in,
[40:53] we still have 36 minutes before she's ready and I'm telling you, you're not going in, do not enter that room and so there's a really nice symbiotic relationship between a doula and a partner that can really play out in the birth room and that's why I recommend getting your doula early, you get to know them, they get to know you and that relationship gets to really build some really deep roots so that you can work seamlessly in the birth room and we know that that's gonna give that mom better outcomes.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[41:21] I just hope that if he does go get chicken nuggets, he also gets ketchup packets. Yeah, hopefully he has the courage to ask for extra ones. Otherwise we're gonna have to send a doula to get the chicken, the pet packets, the ketchup. Okay, I'm a doula, my wife's a doula and at all four of our births, we had a doula and people are like, why did you need a doula? A, we wanted a doula but also, I'm a doula but almost anybody could be the doula. There's a lot of great doulas to choose from could be the doula but only one person could be the partner and they do have different roles. I love the way that you have them working together, doing a dance sort of in collaboration
[41:57] but I also think that to some degree the doulas have certain sort of magical belly powers that partners don't and vice versa. The way that a partner can sometimes just hold or embrace their partner that knows how they tick, what's gonna be comforting to them in a way that a doula might not have learned. Even just a little embrace or whispering a sweet nothing in their ear in a way that a doula can't and then the doula has all this other knowledge and experience that they bring into it and just wisdom and things that they are happy to do that will make the setting better. Even like you just said, sort of cleaning up the room a little bit there's something a partner might not think to do
[42:36] but that can really make a difference in the ambiance and in the experience.
Hehe Stewart[42:40] I always tell partners that, you will never know birth like I know birth but I will never know your partner like you know your partner and together we will be an unstoppable team for your birth and it really does take all three of us. We all have our individual roles and we all go together. We are a big puzzle and so if we can find how we can be cohesive it will give you just the best birth.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[43:05] That was incredibly well put and in my first birth, our first birth, we were not doulas. We had very little experience with childbirth and the doula was amazing because I think that a lot of times guys in particular like to be problem solvers and so when we see what looks like a problem we're just jumping in with solutions. Maybe the solution is baby, why don't you get the epidural right now? Even though she doesn't want, I'm like, you look uncomfortable. Not that I was that guy but the doula was great because she made me feel more comfortable and me more able to just be the partner and like you said, know my wife in ways that she doesn't and also sometimes she would just give me things
[43:45] to do that were helpful. Why don't you take this washcloth and put a little cool water in there just gently hold it over there and like all of a sudden I become the hero. My mom said, oh, that feels so nice, thank you and I just wouldn't have known and I wouldn't have thought to it. Like we went from like the 1950s and 60s where we weren't even allowed in the birth setting to all of a sudden you're the partner. You're the number one it guy. Great, I need the daddy days, is that what you call it?
Hehe Stewart[44:08] Dad days, yep, D-A-D-D-A-Z-E.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[44:11] Yes, that's brilliant, that's really brilliant. I'm winding down here. I guess one question is if you could reimagine the hospital birth system, you know, we're aiming towards it. You and I are optimistic that we're gonna get there one day. What does it look like to the optimal hospital setting?
Hehe Stewart[44:28] Yeah, I think the optimal hospital setting for me would be people who only needed to birth in the hospital system. It would be filled with people who had high risk births and or their intuition told them they wanted to be in that medical setting but for the majority of women, they would be birthing at home with midwives. I think that hospital ideally for me too would be attended by midwives and obstetricians would be reserved for people who needed that high risk education or a surgeon on their team. We would not be having low risk women be attended by obstetricians because it's just an inappropriate match of care. We know that midwives have better outcomes
[45:07] for low risk women, but ideally there's a flip flop. The percentage that we see at home births now would actually be the percentage of people who are birthing in the hospital and the percentage of people we see birthing in the hospital would ideally be birthing at home under the care of midwifery care. With that being said, we are going to have to fix our cohesive transfer system in the US. Right now we have a very segmented way. Now some states are doing it really, really well. There is a midwife in Connecticut that's doing it really well and Indiana does it really well but for the majority of states, we do not do it very well and so when we have transfers,
[45:50] it's usually a really botched system and so in order for this ideal system to work, there's going to have to be some cohesion between the home birth setting and the hospital setting and everyone's gonna have to be on board and understand that transfer does not mean a failure but it just simply means we needed some higher support and the egos are gonna have to take a step back and we're gonna have to see a lot of midwives be more comfortable with transferring earlier and we're gonna have to see a lot of OBs be more open to receive and transfers without the negative kind of resentful feelings that we see currently in the system.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[46:29] Yeah, and there are systems that work that way and we do better than we do.
Hehe Stewart[46:32] Oh yeah, mm-hmm, yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[46:34] You know, years ago I interviewed Carson Meyer.
Hehe Stewart[46:38] Oh, love her.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[46:40] Carson was a doula. She did not have kids. She had this deep wisdom and passion for empowering women during their pregnancy, birth and postpartum experiences and I got the sense that in a previous world she was an extremely busy midwife and it's come back now 10 years later, maybe something like that, with he, Stuart. You have so much wisdom built into you. I am absolutely sure you were a busy midwife in a previous life.
Hehe Stewart[47:11] Oh, you're gonna make me cry.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[47:13] And I'm just honestly from the heart, I feel so blessed to have you on the podcast today and to learn from you. I mean, I really, I've learned a lot and you've opened my mind in a lot of ways and I'm 100% sure that if you'll come back, we will talk to you again.
Hehe Stewart[47:28] I'll absolutely be back. Thank you so much for this honor, truly.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[47:31] My pleasure. Where can we find you and all your wonderful resources online?
Hehe Stewart[47:36] Yeah, absolutely. The best place to find me on social media is under the handle Tranquility by Heehee or z.birth.lounge and then thebirthlounge.com is gonna be all of my courses and there are freebies and there are guides and there are PDFs there and it's really gonna be kind of the hub of everything and the Birth Lounge app. You can download that for Google, Android or iOS.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[47:58] You've really put it all together. That's really incredible. Again, your insight, compassion, your no-nonsense approach to birth education, they're super valuable. Thank you for helping parents reclaim their power and rewrite what the hospital birth can look like. To all of our listeners tuning in, if you found this conversation helpful, please share it with someone who needs it. Leave us a five-star review and check out our other podcasts, One Way or Our Mother, plus an entire library of streaming content for new and expecting parents on Informed Pregnancy Plus. You can find it all at informedpregnancy.com.
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