Key quotes

“You know, I had such a great experience with a postpartum doula and lactation consult of mine that I just felt that I needed to help women like me that didn't have a lot.”

“if we can breathe and stay present in our bodies and slow our heart rate down, a horse will actually sync up to that. And I'm sure you've just seen this just by being around, but if you had to like, take a deep breath in and take a deep breath out, very often, if you're standing next to a horse, they will in fact mimic that.”

“And so I had to say to him, I was like, just poke it in. Just poke it in. Just poke it in. And like, don't tell me when you're going to do it.”

“I am really good at soldier mode and just like, you know, getting it done.”

“I'm like, what if my hand slips? Like, this is how I die. This is how I go.”

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• Ep. 470 Carlson Young: After Birth

Transcript

AI-generated transcript with speaker labels — may contain errors, especially names and medical terms. Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC appears in blue; Jaime Lipsky Garcia in orange.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [0:00] My guest today began her journey of supporting women after becoming a mother herself. She trained as a lactation consultant and postpartum doula before expanding her work to include her first love, horses. Now, she plays a vital role in an equine business and charity that is woman owned and operated focusing on rehabbing, retraining, and rehoming off-track thoroughbreds. She also trains with Willow River Equestrian where she helps scholastic groups, corporate teams, and mental health and wellness programs learn the art of co-regulation through natural horsemanship. And in what might be the most unexpected twist, she absolutely cannot stand belly buttons. I'm Pregnancy Focus Car Director Dr. Ellie Furlan and you're listening to the

[0:43] Inborn Pregnancy Podcast. Jamie Lipski-Garcia, welcome to the podcast. Hi, Dr. V. Thanks for having me again. Oh my gosh, favorite person of mine. Welcome back, I should say, to the podcast. We have an interesting topic today. So let me set the stage for the discussion. We're talking about oomphalophobia, a very real and surprisingly common fear of belly buttons. For some, it's just the sight of them. For others, the thought of them being touched or even just imagining them can trigger a strong physical reaction. Believe it or not, public figures like Khloe Kardashian have openly shared that they struggle with this phobia. So you are definitely not alone. Now, I want to get into because I haven't really come across too many

[1:40] people who talk about it, comes up for me sometimes because we're doing massage when we get to the belly button and all of a sudden, you know, the client turns green or whacks me in the head, whatever suits them. I'm like, what happened there? It's like, don't touch my belly button. But before we get to that, let's get into you a little bit. So I mentioned in the opening, you became a lactation consultant postpartum doula after you became a mom. What

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [2:02] inspired you to take that path? I or my husband didn't have a lot of family that were around us and it truly takes a village. And the experience that I had with the village around me, you were absolutely one of the biggest influences over there. I am one of the village people. You know, I had such a great experience with a postpartum doula and lactation consult of mine that I just felt that I needed to help women like me that didn't have a lot. Or even if they did have a lot, you know, you're given this brand new baby and then you're supposed to do all of these things that are supposed to come naturally and it's ridiculous. It's like, you know, two virgins trying to do something for the first

[2:48] time. It's ridiculous. And then you're expected to do it well. Yes. Now I fully understand. But also, what were you doing before that? I was actually in TV. I was a TV producer on the television show Mythbusters. Okay. So have you joined the two together? Because doulas are often mythbusters. I did kind of join it together and then I just took it one step forward and took that to horses. But yeah, you know, the skills that I think I picked up in producing definitely helped in everything that I've done so far.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [3:23] Like, yeah, you don't go into a new mom's house and blow stuff up. I mean, it depends. Sometimes they're blowing up at people. Anyway, horses you came back to.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [3:36] So horses were a part of your early life. Yeah, I started riding when I was about four years old. And ever since then, it was just in a huge part of my life. It was in my soul, so much so that like, you know, I remember my teacher in kindergarten asking me what I wanted to be when I grew up. And I said I wanted to be a horse. And the conversation that ensued was like, made me so mad that led to me, you know, standing on my chair screaming, you don't know. So it's been in my blood for a really, really long time. But I competed and I rode, you know, my entire life. But something always felt amiss. And it wasn't until recently that I had found the place that I work with now, Wynn Place Home, the charity.

[4:21] And they had opened my mind and my heart to actually listening to a horse and to explaining to me the why of a horse, which I just feel was just never explained.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [4:32] Nay, was it explained to you? Nay. That's my only pun. Okay. I'll do better. This is so English or Western?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [4:43] Uh, primarily English, but I do fight in Western. But I don't really teach in Western. It depends on what the horse kind of wants. And sometimes Western saddles are easier on a horse's back than what English are when we're first restarting them. I need to talk in my language

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [5:00] with the whole back thing. So Hunter or Jumper? Neither. I don't know. I really don't know what I'm talking about. You know, my daughter rides in a little lingo here and there and she was on a jumper the other day and it's such a sharp turn. I think she popped a rib out. Oh my gosh. She just popped it back in. Yeah. So I popped it back in. But, uh, yeah, it was like, maybe the other one, maybe you need the Hunter. Well, I mean, look, it's not a gentle sport any way you ride it. Let's be honest. You've seen the injuries and what my body looks like. I've seen your injuries and other people's injuries. And I've seen even my daughter, you know, she definitely, it's a toll on her body. She had a big spook not that long ago.

[5:43] She was riding a different horse than usual. And I forgot what spooked him. And he just took off like nobody's business. And she came tumbling down and she had the vest, the inflatable vest. And it just shot off like a cannon and inflated before she hit the ground and protected her spine. Her helmet was like disaster. Like if that was her head.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [6:03] She needs a new one. Yeah. She got a new one. I was about to say you need one with MIPS. Those vests are absolutely amazing. I have one and I recommend, you know, everybody who rides wear one, but I need to listen to my own advice on that. Cause I'm always like, that's always the thing. Yeah. I was like, Oh, get it. It'll be fine. Like concussion later. Like it's just, yeah, I have a treadmill that works a lot better if you use it otherwise and use it for that purpose, not just hanging. Okay. So tell me about co-regulation. What does this mean? Co-regulation really is just, you know, and I know you're familiar with this is, you know, sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system. Horses are flight animals. And so

[6:47] their whole science and, you know, the whole way they're built is to go, is to act now and ask questions later. And in a way that they can mirror how we are, you know, on the inside. And so I think that if you can co-regulate with a horse by breathing, by being very present in your body, by being very aware of the nonverbal cues that you're giving that you can co-regulate, I guess, with anything, not just, you know, with a horse or 1200 pound flight animal that could snap you like a chicken in five seconds, you know, with your tantruming toddler or, you know, we do a lot of, could also snap you like,

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [7:28] I'm surprised they didn't. I mean, you have like 12,000 children.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [7:32] Yeah, 12,001 since we spoke last. No, no, I'm just kidding. Just only 12,000. 12,001. So, you know, horses will sync up to our breath and our heart rate. So if we can breathe and which is how, you know, we control our heart rates and our nervous system, if we can breathe and stay present in our bodies and slow our heart rate down, a horse will actually sync up to that. And I'm sure you've just seen this just by being around, but if you had to like, take a deep breath in and take a deep breath out, very often, if you're standing next to a horse, they will in fact mimic that. And also just mixing all your passions together, people do use the horse lips in birth to

[8:13] regulate themselves to kind of let everything go. Absolutely. I mean, the breathing that, you know, the breath work that I learned when I was doing postpartum and labor work, all translates through all of that now. So, you know.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [8:27] I think also like a lot of the energy work and the vibration work for human energy is built on this observation from the 17th century. I think it was a Dutch scientist who saw that if you take two pendulum clocks that are just swinging at different rates and put them next to each other, they'll line up with each other. They'll start to take it the same time. And, you know, that's, I think a lot of the energy work that we do is based on that human energy work. And so for the horses, it makes a lot of sense too.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [8:59] Yeah. It makes a lot of sense with bait, with newborn babies. You know, you often see a mother who's, you know, and I saw this in, you know, lactation, who's frantic and is trying to breastfeed and she just can't get in the baby screaming. And it's, you know, so if you can just be present, slow everything down, co-regulation. As we can tell from this first

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [9:18] segment of the podcast, you are very easy to talk to and a pretty open book. And that is going to make the next two segments a lot better than if you weren't either of those two things, because it's a weird topic. It's a fear of bell buttons, oomphalophobia, and I

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [9:34] can't wait to dig in. We'll be right back. Welcome back, Jamie. Enough about that horse flight. Let's talk about the meat and potatoes of today's episode. I think the first time I heard about this was not with a patient who smacked me in the face, but go over it. But that did happen, actually, was somebody else. Was it me? No, no, no, it wasn't you. But we were doing a series called The Real Midwives of Los Angeles, which still streams on Informed Pregnancy Plus. And yes, it just came up like as we were just talking, people share their pregnancy stories and she was talking about hers and she mentioned the thing. And, you know, at first I giggled. I was like, we have belly buttons. That's crazy.

[10:32] Right. And then I realized I am face blind. I have no facial recognition at all. Most absurd thing. And I was like, maybe I shouldn't give them. Maybe she's being serious. And she was not just serious. Like she honestly said that if she had to choose between someone touching her belly button or rape, it would be a tough call. Well, OK, that's dramatic. And I was like, and she was serious as a heart attack when she said it.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [11:02] Yeah, I believe it.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [11:04] She was like, I don't know which one is mentally worse for me. So it's a real thing. Tell me about for you. Like when did you notice like this might be something that you have or that's different for you?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [11:15] Um, I've never been a giant fan of them. I wasn't even aware this was actually like a thing. And like other people had it. I was today years old when I found out Chloe Kardashian has this. Oh, OK. Look at that. So many things you guys have in common. And it always just grossed me out. It always grossed me out. And then when I had my daughter and, you know, you clip it and all of that stuff, and then it's like there and it's black and it's like about to fall off. I have like the spits right now. I see it coming up. I was like, I actually can't deal with this. What is the quickest way to make this thing go away? Actually, you know, I'm going to strike that before this.

[11:58] I realized when I was pregnant and I had my belly button pierced. Right. And, jeez, you know what? You're taking me down a whole like therapy session here. I think I'm discovering that this is actually going way further back than what I thought it would. I had my belly button pierced when I was 16 years old. And I remember being OK with it. Cleaning it made me want to throw up. I remember that. And then I remember my sister getting hers done and watching it like I thought I was going to die.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [12:26] Like watching them pierce it or watching someone touching it?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [12:32] Yeah. And then again, fast forward a whole many years. Being pregnant and I had to stick a bandaid over my belly button. You know, when it like pops out at the end, thought of like the little bubble and it like touching clothing. I just like it gets more than goosebumps. It's almost like a skin crawling feeling. And so I had to put a bandaid over it.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [12:55] When did you realize it's different than other people?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [12:58] I never did until you told me. Oh, right. I do remember having that reveal. Yes, I never knew it was a thing. I just thought, OK, this is just something that you like. Some people don't like feet or do like feet. I don't know. You know, I just thought it was an episode.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [13:13] It's a totally different episode. But, you know, maybe maybe, you know, there's like the other side of this podcast. Right up until that point, you just thought everybody was like queasy, grossed out, nauseated by looking at talking about touching or seeing somebody else's. Is it seeing somebody else's belly button or only if you see it touch all of it?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [13:35] All of it. All of it. Looking at somebody else's belly button, like I can't even like just the thought of like someone putting their finger. It's so nasty. And I can't explain why.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [13:47] Can you touch your own belly button?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [13:49] No, I don't want to.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [13:51] What happens if you do?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [13:53] So when I clean it, I have to like, I don't look and I'm just like, am I doing this? Is it happening?

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [13:58] And then I just read a screenshot of the face you just made. I'm sure you can replay this and find.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [14:04] Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like because I'm a big wimp. It's sort of like when I have my blood drawn and I'm totally looking away with my eyes closed, trying to think about anything else. I remember one time I had a great aunt who came into our house. She was staying at our house and she came to the kitchen. And I was making bread. I was probably like a young teenager. I cooked a lot when I was a kid. I was making bread. I was kneading the dough with my hands. And she came in and she sneezed. And it's the kind of sneeze where the spray comes and starts to perfulate through the room. Like osmosis going on. You just see it like spreading towards you.

[14:49] No, stop. Okay, because this is the other thing that I'm definitely afraid of. Oh, that? Oh, shoot. It's not. Oh, really? Okay. That's another episode there, too, because I had no idea. I have to research before we talk about fear of boogers. I don't have a fear. It was just the grossest thing that happened. And I saw it coming at me and then you smell it. Like you smell somebody else's spray from their sneeze. And then as I realized, my hands were sort of getting coated it. The whole bread dough that I was making had a little coating. And then she sneezed again. And I instinctively threw my hand up because I thought something was coming at me.

[15:28] And it was her dentures. And I caught her dentures in my hand. And I love her. She's the greatest ever. But that one, two combination is what I think about when I'm having blood drawn. So that I'm not thinking about the blood draw.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [15:41] Now, I'm going to think about it when I get blood drawn.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [15:44] Yeah, great. It works every time. Like, oh, you did it. You're done. Great. Because I was just so busy being grossed out about something else. It's probably there's other ways to go on that. But yes, I just shared that story.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [15:57] That was very descriptive.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [15:58] I appreciate you brought in all of the senses. Yes.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [16:02] That face that you made when you were like, if I have to clean my belly button, I'm just awful. And that's you and your own. So what if somebody else touches that? I mean, at some point, you must have sort of had other people get close to you.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [16:14] This actually came up recently. I probably, I don't know what it is, like nine months ago, I had two tattoos. Well, I had other tattoos. But I had two tattoos put on my stomach on either side of my belly button, kind of.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [16:26] Did they say, do not touch?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [16:28] I did. I did. I said, no.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [16:30] Is that what the tattoos say? Is it just that round circle with a line going through the red one?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [16:38] Take X. And it was fine. I told him I work with the tattoo artist a lot. And, you know, we talk when you're getting jabbed for 75 hours. And so he knows, like, don't touch my belly button. And, you know, he's got to put his hand, like, in all weird positions to get to where it is. So I was, like, very clear, like, do not. I don't care, like, what position you have to get in. If you have to hang from the ceiling, you may not. This is the perimeter. And no. And then afterwards, they had to, they, like, wrap it. They put the second skin stuff on it so that, you know, it doesn't get infected and all of it. You're supposed to leave that on for a couple days.

[17:13] And it had to go. And again, asked the assistant who was doing it, I was like, don't touch my belly button. They were like, OK, no worries. But then the wing of the one bird was just close enough that you couldn't, like, you had to have a little bit of margin on the second skin. And it cut. And he cut it just so that there was, like, a little piece that would have gone, like, over my belly button. And I saw this coming. I saw this happening, like, in real time. And I was looking down and I was watching. And I felt, like, my heart go up. And I was sweating. And he looked up at me and he was like, I'm sorry, should we, like, put this in or should I bring scissors to, like, cut it?

[17:52] All of which were not a good solution because it would have touched my belly button anyway. And so I had to say to him, I was like, just poke it in. Just poke it in. Just poke it in. And like, don't tell me when you're going to do it. I'm going to talk. And like, before he finished a second, he had just, like, poked it in. And I threw up in my mouth a little.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [18:09] Oh, gosh.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [18:10] I know. And then I had to pull it off.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [18:12] Oh, I mean, I guess you're running out of real estate. No, it's not what I meant. No, for those tattoos. I'm just saying you probably got down to, I guess I'm going to have to do one over there.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [18:24] Anyway, so, yeah, so that did come up where someone else had to touch it and it was horrifying. It was absolutely horrifying.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [18:30] Before you knew what it was, what about, like, you and just, like, boyfriends and intimacy and partner?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [18:36] Like, why would you touch someone's belly?

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [18:38] Well, maybe you didn't know. Maybe that's, like, your jam. It's, like, your jam. No, not your jam, but, like, okay, not poking it, but sort of coming in contact with it.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [18:48] Yeah, so I was always just really, like, I guess, like, looking back and thinking about it now, it was always just, like, really tense whenever anyone was, like, around it. Like, really tense. If it was someone that I didn't, like, yeah.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [19:01] I mean, do you recall telling people, don't touch my belly button?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [19:05] I recall, like, saying, no, I don't like that.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [19:08] Okay, that's fair.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [19:09] But again, I didn't know this was such a thing.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [19:14] Yeah, so when you told other people that they didn't think it was weird, it was just a preference.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [19:18] Well, no, because I don't think I said to them, I'll stab you if you touch it. Do you want to get murdered? It was more of just, like, a long list of, like, if it came up, it came up, like, afterwards, where they were like, hey, what was that about? And it was like, I just don't like people touching my belly button. It was never, like, a thing, I guess. Yeah, I cannot recall one time where, you know, someone actually touched it or stuck something in it or whatever. I was like, no, no, sir. Here's a kick to the head.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [19:48] Yeah, I think you have a fairly mild case compared to a lot of other people, because-

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [19:52] You know, after hearing the rape or not situation, I'm kind of like, maybe I do. But I know that whenever I spend, whenever you used to, like, when you used to release my psoas and everything, like, I'm sitting there. I'm like, oh God, oh God, oh God. Don't touch it, don't touch it, don't touch it. That's all I can think about in my head.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [20:09] All of these things kind of have a spectrum. Like, I have pretty black and white severe face blindness. Yeah. But I have a cousin who has face blindness and she's decent at recognizing people. But if they change their hairstyle, she has to, like, get used to it all over again. But when she gets used to it all over again, she's good now for a while. But I don't have that. Like, the second I close my eyes, there's nothing left. All of these things are kind of like a spectrum because I have another patient who told me, like, if she, like, during pregnancy in particular, if she would touch her belly button, she would have to call in, like, mental health day for the rest of the day.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [20:43] I feel like that when I had to touch someone else's belly button. So, I feel like— Like being a mom. I feel like touching someone else's is worse than touching my own.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [20:56] That's good. The navel spectrum. Fifty shades of navel? Yeah, fifty shades of navel. The navel spectrum. Okay, so touching somebody else's is worse than touching your own.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [21:07] Yeah.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [21:08] Where does somebody else touching yours fit in the spectrum?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [21:11] Also there.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [21:13] Where?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [21:13] Like, dealing with someone else's belly button. Someone else touching mine probably falls in that same level.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [21:19] Oh, same. Okay. So, you could touch your own if you look away.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [21:23] These are amazing questions. You know what? I actually have never thought about that before. This is a good question.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [21:28] I'm going to take a break so we can ponder it.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [21:30] I'm going to ponder this because I actually—

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [21:31] When we come back, we're going to see if it comes to you. I hate making you think through these scenarios because I see you turning green with every question. I'm literally going to throw up. But yeah, let's take a little break. When we come back, we'll finish up our topic of oomphalophobia. We'll be right back. Welcome back. We're talking about Jamie. She just had some ginger ale to calm things down.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [22:02] I'm literally going to throw up.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [22:04] Yeah. So, we left kind of with you exploring your own self.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [22:07] Yeah.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [22:08] And this is true. You're one day on the table. Your back goes out from all your jumping, hunting, falling off of horses and stuff, and really breaking them in. I mean, it must be crazy to ride a wild horse like that. And so, sometimes that pull from your deep core muscles on your lower back creates the problem. So, put you on your back and strip through that muscle with deep massage very close to the umbilicus. And then, when you were so weirded out by it, I was like, oh, do you have oomphalophobia? You're like, what's up? And so, here we are. And then, as I started asking you questions about what about during pregnancy? What about when you had the kid?

[22:42] And you were like, ah! You know, I'm sure people are listening to this and puzzle pieces are coming together for them just like they've been for you. But now we're thinking about it deeper. We're doing good work here.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [22:52] Yeah.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [22:52] We're thinking about it deeper. And we're trying to think, okay, touching your own belly button, you made the face. You looked away. You're like, I could do it if I have to.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [23:00] Right.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [23:00] Touching somebody else's was a whole new level.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [23:02] Yeah, no.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [23:03] And somebody else touching yours may be on that level.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [23:07] Yeah. Okay. So, like Sophie's choice, if I had to like touch my own belly button or have someone else touch my belly button, I think that maybe I would have someone else touch my belly button.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [23:17] Oh, really? Oh, so that pull is lower.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [23:19] Well, I think the reason is every time I wish you could like feel the sweat that is actually on my…

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [23:26] I could see it happening. I don't see the beads, but I see your reaction, your visceral reaction. It's a visceral reaction.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [23:33] I wish you could feel it. It's the worst feeling ever. Like just thinking about it. But I think that, yeah, Sophie's choice, I think that I would have someone else do it. And the reason, because if I had to do it, I would think about it and all these things would go through my head. I would start preempting like the physical feelings that I have in my body. And then by the time that I actually got to it, it would be so bad. Like, I don't even know if I could do it. Oh, but someone else could just do it. Yeah, I could be talking and then someone could do it. And then I could be like, okay, it's done. I'll throw up now, but it's done. Yeah, so I think that that's it.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [24:07] I think the phobias work that way a lot. Yeah. People. Okay. Do you know other people now that you've learned about it?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [24:14] Well, my sister has some degree of this. She is definitely not as bad as me at all, but she also doesn't love it. Like, it's not like, you know.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [24:25] Does she know about it because you told her?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [24:27] Yes. Yes. I said, Natalie, I was at Dr. B and you don't even know that this is a real thing and it is a real thing. And after we get off the phone here, I'm going to call her. I'm going to tell her that Chloe Kardashian has the same thing. Yeah, she has like a low level of it, but she won't have like a, like she won't die if it happens to her. She won't throw up, but she'll be like, ugh.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [24:49] Now with this in context, I mean, it is a visual reaction for you and having a baby, so they have the umbilical stump and you have to care for it and it's something coming out of the belly button and you still didn't even know you had it. Like it was different for you than other people. Yeah. How did you cope with it? How'd you get through that? I mean, I always say mom can do anything, but how did you do it?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [25:11] I am really good at soldier mode and just like, you know, getting it done. I remember wearing gloves, which everybody thought was a little extreme.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [25:20] Because it was your own kid.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [25:22] Yeah. I think most people thought that I was doing it because I didn't want to get it infected. Really, I just didn't want to get infected. I also bought like, I think they sort of have a version of it here, but I remember my aunt bringing me this like special powder from South Africa. You know, it like dries it out and I swear to God, it cut the healing time by like five days.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [25:45] It changed for you once you learned what it was?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [25:49] No, not at all. It just was something that I can't imagine. It's just like, oh, it's just me. Look, I want to talk to other people because I want to know what their reactions feel like. Because my sister and I compare reactions and mine is a bit of a bigger scale, but like they're pretty similar in the feelings that we get in our body. So I want to know if this is like a common thing.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [26:10] I had someone, she's probably in her sixties.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [26:13] Yeah.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [26:14] And I realized she has it. She was sort of soldier mode about it too. Like her back was out and I was doing her so as in, I could tell she was getting real uncomfortable. She doesn't have reactions to things. She's very stoic. And so even if I'm digging into a muscle or a tendon that's like really sharp, she just breathes through it and let's go, which is also like you actually. But then I could tell when I was getting around her belly button that she was having a hard time staying calm. And so I asked her about it and she's like, I never like when anybody touches me near my belly button. I'm like, oh, you know, it's a thing called, and she just would not even talk about it.

[26:48] She's like, don't tell me. I don't want to know. I don't care. She didn't want me to say the word belly button. She didn't want me to say, even when she found out means belly button, I couldn't say anymore.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [26:59] I want to throw up when you say it too. Like I couldn't find a better word to call it. They couldn't have found a better word. Like even the word that gives me the spits. Okay. And in Afrikaans, we would call it the krelis, right? They're like the, the heebie-jeebies. Yes, the khakhis. Yeah, you can't hear. I don't want to talk about it.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [27:26] That's a fair reaction, but I want to know what it feels like in her body.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [27:29] So I have a very specific feeling in my body when it happens.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [27:32] You know what? I will right now deeply encourage anybody who's listening, who has this, share with us, send us an email, go on social media and send us a message. Tell us what it feels like and we'll share it with Jamie. Well, and if you want us to, we'll share it with everyone else because I bet it does feel different. And for me, face blindness became a lot more livable. I mean, it was livable, but it was a very confusing life and it got much clearer and much easier to navigate once I started to talk to other people who have it and realize, you know, which parts of my experience in life have to do with me just being a weirdo and which are actually

[28:10] presopagnosia and face blindness and how…

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [28:13] But your mom has it too, right? Your mom…

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [28:16] I don't know if she has it. I'm not sure. My dad was, I think, the exact opposite. He would see somebody who he met 20 years ago and then 20 years later, he's like, oh, how? You know, I'm like, you know, my wife, who I've been with my whole life. I'm like, oh, are you my wife? So it's the exact opposite. My mom, I think, may be weaker with faces. I try to get her to do the test and I think she did mediocre. So I'm not sure. But I have an acquaintance who's a midwife and she has it and her mother has it, her sister has it and her daughter has it. So that can obviously run in families and you and your sister both have phobia. I haven't really done the science research

[28:54] when I did it a while back and there just wasn't a lot on like what might cause it and if there are ways to overcome it. But it's clear to me that it's a spectrum because yeah, I had that other pregnant patient. She said when she would touch it, she would have like a really big emotional release and have to call in a mental health day and during pregnancy because it moved, she'd go button her jeans and touch it and just be like, I gotta be out today and you're gagging even just me talking about it. So yeah, I would love to connect you with other people and also talk to other people. I think this could be the episode, the moment in life that sparks me

[29:31] to do another podcast series and all these weird, I shouldn't call them weird, but it's sort of unique brain things.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [29:37] It is weird.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [29:38] Yeah, sure. We'll go with weird. And then, you know, who knows? I could probably find a way to get Chloe on the horn and see what her experience is like with it as well. So, you know, different things. We all have different things. Well, have you ever done anything to try to overcome it like hypnosis or other things that people do for phobias?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [29:59] No.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [30:00] Would you be curious to try that or just not a big enough thing in your life thing?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [30:04] No, I would love to. I would absolutely be open to it, not feel like I want to throw up every time, like, you know.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [30:11] Because I did send that mom. She was pregnant from the real midwife. She was pregnant. She was going to have a baby. And I was like, how are you going to do this? So I sent her to do a hypnotherapy session and she said it was helpful. I don't remember after the baby came, you know, what it was like for her. But actually, I think we never aired them because life got so busy for her. We never got to film the after birth series, like the episodes after the baby came. But she did say that the hypnotherapy was helpful for like in sort of desensitizing it a little bit or giving her a means of being able to be more functional around it. Right.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [30:48] Sometimes I think about like desensitizing myself. And like, I think, you know, when I clean my belly button, I'm like, okay, this is like desensitization. This is like what we do with the horses. You're going to be okay. Yes, full circle. But I have to pep talk myself for a really long time and maybe even like take it out of it. And then-

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [31:05] I mean, do horses have a belly button?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [31:08] They do. Huge and it's awful.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [31:13] So like when you're cleaning them and stuff?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [31:16] Well, I don't know. I won't do that. But I'll tell you where I think about it the most. So there's an exercise that you do for a horse called the belly lift and that helps engage the muscles on either side of the spine to lift up and to, you know, get into the spine, teaches them to use their core and, you know, stretch the spine and all of that. And to do that, you run your hand and your fingers along the midline of the horses, you know, underneath the stomach. And the belly button is quite far back and it doesn't really look like or feel like, you know, yours and mine. I nearly fainted the first time I looked at a horse. I mean, I assumed that they had one,

[31:54] but I don't really know what it looks like. Absolutely. So sometimes when I'm doing, you know, especially like a horse with like a short back or whatever and I'm like doing this belly lift, I'm like, I'm not going to go too far that way. Or if it moves and then my hand slips and touches it, then I die.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [32:15] Oh God. Okay. So yeah. And then that's how they became the modified Jamie Lipsky horsey belly lift maneuver.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [32:24] I mean, you can do it without going that far back, but like sometimes I feel like, okay, so I'm doing it now, but like sometimes horses don't like it and they can get uncomfortable and kind of shift if it's really hard for them. Sometimes they'll move. And then I think about this every time they get closer towards the back, I'm like, what if my hand slips? Like, this is how I die. This is how I go. Touching the horse's belly button, this is what gives me a heart attack.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [32:49] Well, yeah, but again, that gives a sense for the magnitude. It is, it is. Of how intense that is for you.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [32:55] It's the same with my dogs too. Like I will actively like try and see where the belly button is and just like really, and even if I think something looks like a belly button, I don't like that either. That's the other thing.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [33:05] What about drawings of belly buttons?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [33:09] Why would anyone have a drawing of a belly button?

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [33:11] I don't know, but you know,

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [33:11] sometimes kids draw people and they draw the belly button. No, I would smack that. I'm sorry, what's a belly button picture?

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [33:20] Okay, we're winding down. We're towards the end here. You are always amazing to talk to. And I really appreciate you on this episode because I know that there's a lot of these conditions that people have that they don't even know they have. Like I had face blindness and you had a phobia, sorry for saying it. And there's more. So it could be a spinoff. We might be doing some brain oddities, a whole new series. Is there anything before we sign off, anything that I didn't ask you that you think would be relevant?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [33:52] No, I mean, I can't even think about it because I'm like, don't think about it. My brain has been like, don't think about it, don't think about it, don't think about it.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [34:00] So it's also kind of interesting because when you just touched your ear first thing, I thought it's not any of the other orifices, right? You have nothing with ears or nose or mouth.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [34:09] Nothing.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [34:10] Just that one.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [34:11] Yeah, like nothing. Just that one.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [34:13] That one specifically. So interesting. All right, well, you've inspired me to do some more homework on it and see if we've come up with more about what may cause it. And I don't know if there are remedies for it. I'll report back.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [34:26] Yeah, I want to know why I'm like this.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [34:30] Thanks a million for joining me.

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [34:32] Of course, Dr. B, thanks for having me again.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [34:35] Jamie, where can we find you online?

Jaime Lipsky Garcia [34:37] So you can find anything to do with horses, with me and horses, if you have questions or if you want to come out and volunteer or if you're interested in clinics or riding or co-regulating non-belly button related things, you can find me at winplacehome.org or at winplacehome Instagram or willowriveraquestrian.com or at willowriveraquestrian on Instagram. I will be there. Win Place Home.

Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC [35:03] Win Place Home. Thanks again for joining me and at home thanks for listening to the Informed Pregnancy Podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a moment to subscribe and leave us a five-star rating and share us with your friends. For more pregnancy and postpartum content just like this, visit us online at informedpregnancy.com.

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