What if your perinatal care team truly worked together? Prenatal bodyworker turned community builder Sally Hayes discusses Matrikas, a national network that she founded in order to connect birth community providers and brands with the goal of collaborative care becoming the norm.
Informed Pregnancy Media and Mahmee present an all new podcast! One Way or a Mother is a new narrative podcast from Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC. Each season is an intimate story of one woman, one pregnancy, and all of the preparations, emotions, and personal history leading up to the birth. Episodes feature the expectant mother along with her family, doctors, and birth work team.
AI-generated transcript with speaker labels — may contain errors, especially names and medical terms. Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC appears in blue; Sally Hayes in orange.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:00] What if your care team truly worked together, sharing notes, coordinating plans, and making sure you never fell through the cracks? My guest today is a long-time prenatal body worker turned community builder who founded a national network connecting fertility, pregnancy, postpartum, and menopause providers and trusted brands. She's on a mission to make collaborative care the norm, so families can find the right experts and providers can coordinate seamlessly to support them. I'm pregnancy-focused chiropractor, Dr. Elliott Berlin, and you're listening to the Informed Pregnancy Podcast. Sally Hayes, welcome to the podcast.
Sally Hayes[0:52] Thank you so much for having me.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:54] Fellow body worker. Exactly.
Sally Hayes[0:58] I was a prenatal massage therapist for 26 years.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:01] Oh, that's a good start.
Sally Hayes[1:03] It's a good start. I love body work so much, and I think it's so vitally important, especially through fertility, pregnancy, and postpartum.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:12] I could not agree more. I went to massage school, and I went to chiropractic school, and I smushed them together because it just made sense to me. We have a musculoskeletal system, let's get it from both sides, and we get a lot of great results with massage in the practice, and we got a lot of great results with chiropractic in the practice, and sometimes when you smush them together, one plus one equals three, and you get even more awesome things happening. I never thought I'd get into prenatal care. That was not a goal of ours from the beginning. It just kind of happened naturally as we went through the phases of fertility struggle, then pregnancy, then postpartum, and all along the way, I feel like the
[1:51] training that we got in our programs wasn't that great in terms of all the awesome things you can do to help people through those stages. It was mostly about the things you can't do, or be careful about this, or don't touch that, or liability. And there was a lot of learning along the way, I'm sure. It must have been the same for you.
Sally Hayes[2:10] I actually went to the Atlanta School of Massage, and we had an exceptional prenatal program, so I wasn't trained to not touch this or not do this. It was really created by someone who strictly saw pregnant people during, for her practice, and I actually had a really great experience. However, I did not receive any postpartum education, and nobody was talking about fertility. This was back in the nineties.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[2:40] Exactly. So that's an interesting tidbit because I also went to the Atlanta School of Massage.
Sally Hayes[2:46] Did you?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[2:47] Surprise. I went in 98.
Sally Hayes[2:50] Uh, that's around the same time I was there, actually. I was there probably in 98.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[2:55] Did you go to life chiropractic?
Sally Hayes[2:57] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[2:57] So I went to life during the day and I went to the Atlanta School of Massage at night time.
Sally Hayes[3:02] I did the nighttime program. I did a clinical program daytime.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:07] Yeah. So, hmm, we might've just missed each other in the parking lot there. And yes, she did have a great program for pregnancy, better than most, I think, but also nothing for fertility. I don't remember anything regarding postpartum, certainly not menopause. And then also in chiropractic school is where they really had mostly what not to do and very little of what you could do. So we got lucky in our massage training, I think.
Sally Hayes[3:37] I agree.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:38] And then being part of that is incredible. How'd you get into it in the first place? What sent you off to massage school?
Sally Hayes[3:43] That's a fantastic question. And I don't really know to tell you the truth. I grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere in Georgia. I did not know that massage was a career. I had no idea. I was in college at the university of Georgia. I was studying women's studies. And really passionate about women's health issues. And my neighbor left to move to Atlanta to go to massage school. And it stuck with me for about a year. So this was back in the day, you had to open up a phone book and actually call the school and talk to them. And they sent me a packet of information and something inside me just told me to go.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[4:21] No, and it's a pretty cool program. You leave, I think, feeling very secure in being able to deliver good quality body work. But how did that lead to pregnancy? Was it the blending of the women's health studies and massage or something else?
Sally Hayes[4:38] I think that definitely played a part. My very first client, when I got out and, you know, back in the day, like Georgia didn't really have spas or anything like that. So I had to open an office on my own and I put ads in the paper and people came and one of my very first clients was pregnant. And the next week, six pregnant people called me. Oh, or like, I heard you did a thing with this friend of mine and we need it too. And from there it took off and I never really set out to work specifically with the pregnancy population, but it was really such a beautiful force of nature to be able to see clients all the way through their pregnancy and then into postpartum as well.
[5:23] And the clientele that are pregnant, take it more seriously and are exceptional clients and to be able to give people a little bit of relief when their body is rapidly changing and undergoing such, you know, expansion in their hips and their back is getting tight. And to give them a little bit of relief always gave me that warm fuzzy.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:47] Yeah. It's a really incredible time to be supporting someone with bodywork, especially since they're working 24 seven, supporting that little life inside. You know, when you're working in pregnancy, it's sort of funny that you said I, I saw one pregnant client and then the next day I had six. I feel like that happens all the time here. Like I'll literally work on a postal worker and then all of a sudden get six postal workers like, can one of you just bring my mail? Okay. So it's happened with football players. It just, you know, and pregnant people. So how did working in prenatal care as a body worker sort of lead to this mission of yours to have collaborative care among providers?
Sally Hayes[6:33] I moved to California and started doing massage in California and started working a little bit more with the pregnancy and postpartum population. And clients naturally asked me for referrals, just for everything. I went to a yoga class and I felt like the teacher didn't give me the attention that I needed or I'm not really happy with my OB anymore and I want to go with a midwife or I think I need a doula and I wasn't really connected to very many people. So, you know, as a massage therapist, you're pretty close with chiropractors and acupuncturists, but you don't necessarily have a Rolodex of lactation consultants, you know, in your pocket. So every time someone asked me, I either went online or just started asking
[7:20] around and I started meeting people for coffee one-on-one and I found this similar thread with everyone that we all desperately needed each other's referrals. So after being highly caffeinated with several coffee talks, I decided once a month, let's just meet in my office and have a fun happy hour, make it chill. Well, we can get to know each other and get to know each other's values and practices and do you take insurance? Do you not? Are you in the valley? Are you on the west side? And that is what became Matrikos. It was a happy accident that I never necessarily intended to create, but it seemed to be needed. A lot of people were experiencing burnout and didn't have people to refer to
[8:09] and, I mean, you know how it is. You practice, like how hard is it to take a vacation sometimes?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:15] Oh, yeah. I assumed you were going to say one of those people complained that my car tractor makes too many dad jokes. There's one right now.
Sally Hayes[8:26] Your name came up so many times when I was seeing clients and every time I would hear about you, I would say, okay, you're going to see Berlin. Great. Do you like him? And they would say, yes, he's the best. And I would go, great. Okay. You know, tick got that. So then yeah, then it was in the new Rolodex. Now, when people ask for chiropractors, a lot of my clients love Berlin.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:48] Oh, that's sweet. And it's also, I find that it's a moving target. Like you'll find two or three providers that are just great and you love them and you know who they're going to be a good fit for and maybe who they won't be a good fit for. Like we all are good for some people and not good for others, but then all of a sudden they'll move out of town or they'll retire or they'll stop practicing that particular specialty and so, you know, it's something that needs constant maintenance. If you're going to have a network like that, it absolutely does.
Sally Hayes[9:15] It's a very difficult thing to create. It was a lot of extra work for me, which is how it became its own thing. And once I met providers, they were so excited to find a directory that's already been made for them that they didn't have to go out and network themselves. But matching clients is really particular work. I do not claim to be a matchmaker. I think that I'm putting people together and then they end up not liking each other or, you know, I usually give a list of three to five people so that everybody has options. And sometimes it surprises me who they actually pick and go with.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:49] Yeah.
Sally Hayes[9:50] Sometimes I'm dead on, and then sometimes I'm way off.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:53] Interesting. And that was in California, but now you've kind of expanded much larger than that.
Sally Hayes[10:01] Now we are national. I'm going to say national. We actually do have Canadian members as well, but I'm going to keep with being national. I didn't intend to go national either. This was just honestly purely out of selfish reasons for my clientele. I'm no longer practicing massage. I'm now running Matricos full time. A lot of our providers were bi-coastal or you know how it is when people start nesting, they move. So people would move and say, I'm going to North Carolina. Do you know anybody there? And I would say, let me see. I don't know. Let me, let me see if I can find somebody. And then I started just expanding and meeting people. And so now we are throughout the U S and growing.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:41] Well, I think mentally it's hard to keep track of even just people in one local area and not just people like there's so many categories that you're talking about with the lactation, the doula, the postpartum, the nannies, the baby nurses, the photographers, the everything. It's hard to keep track of just in one area and then to keep track of all those people in all those areas, you must be very organized.
Sally Hayes[11:02] It takes a lot of organization.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:05] Extremely organized. What is it really? Where does it come from?
Sally Hayes[11:09] It's actually the name of a Hindu goddess collective that rules conception, childbirth and children's health. So it's considered to be seven or eight Hindu goddesses together.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:23] And then the, of course you have all of them on a neat list.
Sally Hayes[11:26] Exactly.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:26] Exactly.
Sally Hayes[11:28] You know that a website back then. And then the ma is obviously the base for mother and ma mama.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:35] Yes. Great. So in your mind, it sounds like just having the list, the resources, the references that you talked about is an incredible gift to people going through these journeys, but you take it deeper into more of a collaborative approach. So not just that here's resource A and there's resource Z in here, but you make it possible for them to sort of work together. I always find when we work as a team, when our patients want us to communicate with each other, that they get the best care. Even like sometimes you have chiropractors and medical doctors who don't see eye to eye on things, which could be fine, but when we're talking to each other, this is what I found.
[12:18] I see different things, you know, I'm exposed to different things and they see different things and they have different know-how. When we kind of collaborate and work together, we do definitely get the best results for our patients. How could you make that happen?
Sally Hayes[12:32] I think it's so important to have collaborative care because when I was doing massage, I knew that I had an extent to my work, right? But pelvic floor PTs could do internal work, chiropractors adjust bones, acupuncturists work on a different system completely. So we all needed each other and Montrecos itself has in-person meetups and we do a lot of Zoom so that we can get to know each other because there are such a variety of opinions and techniques and the way you work. And I think it's important to develop real relationships with people so that you can thoroughly refer people and feel very confident through that. I think that we don't just work alone, right?
[13:24] And you wouldn't want a provider to just work alone. I've seen clients literally come in and say, you know, their first time with me and they were very nervous and they said, oh, I was referred to you by this person and I'm saying, oh, great, they're great. And they kind of calm down a little bit. And then the next session, they say, oh, my doula knows you too. And they soften a little bit and they start trusting you more and they start trusting the doula more and they start trusting the acupuncturists more and they know that they're in good hands because they know that we are a team together.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:58] I feel that happen and I actually sometimes I'll see somebody who is seeing a provider I don't know and I've never met, but I'll sometimes see like three or four people that have seen that provider now. And I almost feel like I do know them because, you know, the things that my patients are saying about them and the type of care that they're getting from them, you know, it creates sort of like a profile of what it's like to be under their care. So I start to feel like I know them and then I try to make time to reach out and be like, hey, you know, we have three or four clients in common, let's have, you know, it's LA, so let's have a coffee, a really
[14:30] expensive coffee somewhere and talk about it.
Sally Hayes[14:34] I think it's so important. It's so important to know each other and to give flowers where they're due. You know, reach out and say, I had a client today who raped about you. And I just wanted to let you know, that's a really wonderful thing that I've done for a lot of people. And a lot of people have done for me. And it's always really nice to hear.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:51] Yeah, I agree. Okay. There's a lot more here in terms of the work you're doing and what you've built. And I think for listeners, many of whom are in these various stages of life, there's a lot to gain from it. So let's take a quick break and we come back. We'll find out more details about Matrakas and how it can benefit everyone who's listening right now. Welcome back. We're talking to my fellow classmate from the Atlanta School of Massage, Sally Hayes, all about Matrakas collaborative care during these particular phases, all the way from fertility through menopause. And you've built quite a platform. So I want to learn more about the mechanics of it and how it works,
[15:45] meaning how do you specifically add people to your network from the provider's side and learn about them and what kind of information, how can we access it from the patient side?
Sally Hayes[15:57] Fantastic questions. At this stage in the game, I vet everyone personally. So people either have a zoom call with me or I meet them in person or we chat via email and I check out all of their information and it's a membership based directory. So we do have a membership fee and we have in-person events quarterly in Los Angeles, New York, New Jersey, and Detroit as of right now. There will be new cities coming soon. And we also have educational zooms for anything from website building and branding into birth trauma from clinical psychologists and pelvic floor therapists talking about the work that they do. And we also meet on zoom nationally so that we can all refer to each
[16:48] other and get to know each other and collaborate in that way. And it started just as a happy hour out of my office and it has spread. Thankfully, it is a beautiful community. I had my first event in New York and that was the first city we did outside of LA and I remember going and thinking, oh, I've been in LA so long. Like, I don't know, the culture is going to be so different. And I don't know how everyone's going to even take this. And it was exactly the same because everyone who works in the perinatal industry is so passionate and so many letters behind their name. I've never seen people more dedicated, you know, like you are a doctor of physical therapy and a lactation consultant and a doula and, you know, it never ends.
[17:35] Everybody's always continuing to take classes and everything, but everyone's extremely passionate about what they do and extremely excited to meet other people and this seemed to be a really big need that we all had was we were working so busy in our own practices that we didn't have time to get out and network and meet other people. So when people do come together, they're so excited to network together and to be able to have someone to refer to and to collaborate on care. And then from the point of view, if you are looking for a provider, we do have a public facing directory, so it is searchable, you can go on and you can say, I'm looking for a fertility person in Ohio and see if there's
[18:14] anyone there, you can say, you know, I'm in the middle of nowhere and I need virtual care who all does virtual. And that was really important to me to be able to provide a list of people that you could access at any time of the day, because I found when I was practicing that clients were coming in and telling me that they were up breastfeeding at 3am and Googling and bought some crazy tea from some crazy company and, you know, booked an appointment with somebody. And it's like, but who and what do you mean? And you're Googling random stuff. So I felt it was very important to make sure that people had vetted trusted sources rather than, you know, scrolling through Instagram or
[18:59] TikTok or just Googling and finding people that who knows what their qualifications were.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:06] For the public directories, is that a membership as well?
Sally Hayes[19:10] No, anyone can access the directory at any time. It is public facing, will always be public facing. We are a provider facing company more than a client facing, but that is something that we have. Most of our events are provider facing. Annually, we have one event that is open to the public and that is called Build Your Village. And that is where our directory comes to life. So you can walk in and meet people directly from the membership and you can literally build your village. You can find a lactation consultant while you're still pregnant. Maybe you didn't even know you needed one, but you chatted with one and you have their business card in your pocket now so that when you
[19:52] do need one, instead of scrolling at 3am and Googling, you have someone that you can already connect with.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[20:00] Wow.
Sally Hayes[20:00] It's like speed dating for providers.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[20:03] Exactly. Let's check out these four doulas right here very quickly. But I kind of envision it that way. And it's probably really convenient because otherwise you do, you have to do all these phone calls and research and, you know, make appointments and find times and here they're just like, boom, boom, boom. Let me ask you the questions, get in your energy, see if it's a good match for my energy. That's a really cool event. I bet everybody wishes they had one near them.
Sally Hayes[20:28] Yes, one day, one day.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[20:31] Yeah. And it's so true what you said about providers in the birth space. It's just a very unique energy. First of all, it's hard on the mind, body and spirit. It's not easy work. It's very rewarding work, but it's not easy. I mean, you see things that are sometimes really difficult and you support people through times that are sometimes really difficult and also through the times of the most joyous moments of their life. So there's some really intense ups and downs. If you're an on-call provider, you never sleep with both eyes closed. And even then when you get the call, you don't know, is this just going to be a phone call or am I going to go to a birth now?
[21:07] Am I going to be there for an hour? Am I going to be there for two days? You end up missing things that are really important milestones in your own family. So there's a lot of sacrifice involved and it's challenging. Nobody does it unless they're really passionate about it. And if they start to do it and they're not passionate about it, then they do it for about 10 minutes and then they're out. Um, but the other thing about this sort of collaborative network that you're putting together is it's really great for us to support each other, you know, because we understand each other in a lot of ways. And when somebody else is going through it, you can be there to help them
[21:44] through it and support them and vice versa. So I see an extra layer of awesomeness in Matrikos in that way. So getting back to the user, a user can go on to your database and search around for providers in their area for free, free access to it. Where is that located?
Sally Hayes[22:04] It's on our website, which is we are matrikos.com. And at the very top, you'll see provider directory. You click right on that. And there is a filter system, which you can choose whatever you'd like. We are very excited that so many practitioners are offering virtual care as well, because a lot of people don't live in an area that have access to care, and even if you do live in a city like Los Angeles, it's hard to get across LA from one side of the 405.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[22:40] But I mean, that's our problem here in Los Angeles, but there are huge swaths of the country where there's very few, if any, providers in certain categories. So thank you, COVID, for making virtual care a thing, pros and cons to it. But that's one of the big pros is a lot more people have access now. To what extent do, like if I go on there and I pick providers, to what extent do the providers connect with each other from your side of things? Or is it me telling my providers, Hey, can you guys talk to each other?
Sally Hayes[23:12] You can definitely do that. I suggest to everyone to pick three to five providers and make a nice tight little circle as to the people that you're referring to back and forth. I know that when I was practicing, I had a couple of people and we all work together as a triad, especially when people were getting that, you know, you're going to be induced situation. They would see acupuncture, chiropractic, massage, pelvic floor. Like they were going through the list, right? They were like anything that's going to help me avoid an induction.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:44] Exactly. Which I've still never tried that salad, but I've always wanted to.
Sally Hayes[23:50] Me either. Cause I don't want to go into labor.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:52] Exactly.
Sally Hayes[23:55] But that was such an important thing to be able to text someone and they would say, I'll hold the office open another hour and send them right now, you know, when you know people well enough and you know how passionate they are, they will find a time and squeeze your client in for you.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[24:12] Yeah, that's a really cool thing about us being connected to each other. In some ways it is kind of a small birth world. You start to get to know everybody. And I much prefer to work with practitioners who I can send a quick text to, and I know they'll be warm and receptive to it and we can do each other favors and squeeze people in and, you know, find resources. If I don't know somebody, but they do and vice versa, that definitely that team approach is very cool.
Sally Hayes[24:38] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[24:38] I think you sometimes also on the other side of it, you see it at yoga classes. Uh, mommy's got to do prenatal yoga and they have like such a village in the yoga class of people on the same journey around the same times. And they support each other in those ways and they're available to each other in those ways. It's kind of just like the postal work. I'll sometimes have a patient who came from a yoga class and went and said, Oh my gosh, I had this horrible neck pain and I went to see this guy and it's gone. And next thing you know, they might as well just hold the yoga class in my office because everyone's coming in here. So the communication, the networking, the building, I mean, the village,
[25:16] the whole concept of the village is not new. It's just reborn. No pun intended. We always lived in a village. We had the village. All these people were part of the village. There was no doula because everybody was the doula and you didn't have to take a lactation class because you saw everybody in your family, uh, lactating and feeding their kids and childbirth education. You were part of the team. So you had a lot of exposure and experience different from what you see on TV, movies and read a newspaper headline. So the village was there, then it disappeared. And I think it got really challenging and now you're bringing the village back. And I think that's a wonderful thing.
Sally Hayes[25:52] Thank you. Another point to that too, is everyone says it takes a village, but nobody tells you how to build it. Nobody tells her the village is we're fortunate that some people work in collectives. You know, you have a lot of people in your office and that's a really great space and those type of areas are fantastic. But what if you don't have anything like that near you and you finally found a pelvic floor therapist that you can work with? Great. But what about the doula and the lactation consultant? And what about that? They need to know each other and work together. I do think that's another great thing that came out of the pandemic is we have become more focused on reality and we're
[26:33] understanding the importance. I grew up on a farm, so I grew up in a very small town. I understand community very well. Everyone takes care of each other. I think that the American individualism system got a little off the rails there for a little bit and we all thought we were independent doing everything ourselves, but we're really not doing everything ourselves and we really do need each other and we need support and we need to know where to find that support.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[27:00] I feel like going into this commercial playing the village people, but I have no idea how licensing works. So I'm not going to do that. I do want to take a break. When we come back, we're going to talk about those events you mentioned and learn what happens and if there's going to be one near me. We'll be right back.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[27:29] Welcome back. We're talking to Sally Hayes from Nottrick Us. So you put together this incredible village, which is accessible to anyone, anywhere online, but then you'll also do in-person events, some of them just for providers and some of them open to the public as well. What is the purpose of the event? What happens at a Notrick Us event?
Sally Hayes[27:51] For the provider focused events, the purpose is to build real relationships and develop a referral network. Sometimes we also have educational pieces, which are really nice as well, because everyone loves to hear what other people do. I know when I had a massage business and I had therapists that worked for me, I brought in lactation consultants to teach the therapists what lactation is and how it all works so that we could support people through their postpartum. I know that people really appreciate that. I walk around and hear little stories all the time of a doula and a midwife talking and saying, you know, this happened the other day. So that always makes me super happy that people are bonding,
[28:36] forming relationships and trusting each other enough to send patients and clients back and forth. And then for our open to the public events, that is really about come and find your providers. I'm a huge advocate of finding providers before you think you need them. I'm a huge advocate of preparing to conceive before you start trying to conceive and building your team. Oh, novel idea. Isn't that great? And I want you to prepare for postpartum before you get to postpartum. So through your pregnancy, you can start thinking about your postpartum care, your lactation consultants, everything that you might need, a night nurse, any of that. I've had clients who had difficult births and called in a physical
[29:28] therapist to help them in the first few days learn to get out of bed correctly, and they said it was a complete game changer for them. So when you're in postpartum, that is not the time that you want to go scrolling around on Google with one eye open because you're sleep deprived and try and find somebody who's going to come to your house and see you in not the best shape of your life, right? You want to have somebody that you already know and you've already met and you've developed a relationship with so that you can just send that text and there's trust built already. So I think that's really important. I don't think that we do postpartum very well in the US.
[30:08] I would like to see postpartum care elevated. I would like to see better coverage. I would like to see policy change. My future for Matrakas is advocacy work and policy change as well. I believe that community precedes policy. I think we have to come together first and we have to educate the public, but also policymakers so that we can improve reproductive health in the US.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[30:38] It's really powerful. So in some ways I'm like, wow, you built this awesome thing. And in other ways, you're telling me that's just the ground floor.
Sally Hayes[30:46] It is. I'm just getting started. There's lots coming.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[30:48] Yeah. Sit back and buckle up. Okay. So I'm excited because you have an event coming up in Los Angeles. This is the Build Your Village event. So I'm excited as a provider for both sides of it. I'm excited to meet other providers. Probably see people I haven't seen in a long time. How I do know meet people who I don't know. Also to meet people who are on the journey, you know, looking for providers, but also just, you know, looking for information. And when you put those kinds of providers in a room, you're going to get a wealth of information in addition to like, let's say where they can sit down and sort of talk to or meet from provider to provider, whether other things are going to happen at the event.
Sally Hayes[31:31] We have expert panels. We have providers that will be there sponsoring with booths that you can walk up and ask questions and get to know them. We have some really cool trusted brands that will be there as well. And then a lot of the Matrikast members will actually be there milling around to support everyone and get to know each other in a very easy way. When I was a massage therapist, I used to go do a lot of these expos and it felt very cold to me. And something that I really wanted to build in was the networking piece. And our very first Build Your Village, we had so many providers that actually bought a ticket to come because they wanted to meet everyone and they just wanted to be in
[32:12] the room. They were that passionate about everything. So we built in networking behind the scenes for everyone. We've told all the providers you're going to come. We're all going to be friendly. We're all going to know each other by the end of the day. And another part of what we're doing that makes this so special is we are working with infertility support groups, mom groups and menopause groups. We have a menopause portion this year as well. And we're working with those support groups. So if you don't know anybody in town or if you're the only one in your friend group who's going through fertility or postpartum, you can come on your own and you can meet all the providers that you need.
[32:53] You can find some good trusted brands that are out there. You're going to leave with a really great goody bag and you can also find your circle of friends and support. We really wanted to make this entire event from the top to the bottom rooted in community. It's extremely important that community is the language we all speak. We are not competitive. We are collaborative and we want all the providers to be in community and we want everyone to feel super welcomed who's coming as an attendee as well.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[33:26] It sounds incredible. You said something a little bit earlier about how you plan for postpartum before you get there. I agree. Postpartum is grossly underserved. We need to do more. My population started with us. We struggled with fertility, my wife and I, for a long time. It was only when we overcame it that we kind of decided to make our mind body practice, she's a psychologist, mind body practice to keep an eye on boosting, helping people boost their natural fertility with the tools that we had. And through that program, we started to work in pregnancy, more and more pregnancies each year, then more and more birth and then more postpartum and all the things that come with that.
[34:06] It's now that we're getting older and so are the people who started with us here are starting to reach perimenopause and menopause. And I'm also seeing that there's really gross underpreparation for that phase as well. So I'm super excited that you included that in the work that you're doing. But when you talk about planning for it before you get there, my wife famously does this third trimester mental health checkup, you know, before you have the baby. Nothing has to be wrong. It's just where are you? What are you thinking about your birth? What are you thinking about postpartum? How do you envision it going? What are you doing to help yourself get to that vision?
[34:45] And one of the most powerful things about it is that could be their only visit. But if on the other side, they do start to feel some of the P-mats, the anxiety and depression, other things that sometimes really kick in hard after the baby comes. If you haven't met somebody there, if you haven't done the prep work, it can feel really overwhelming to start to look for somebody at that point or to make a connection with somebody you haven't connected with yet. That right there could be the difference between somebody getting help when they need it or somebody suffering through a long period of time before they finally get help. And so there's so much rich value to the work that you're doing.
[35:28] And also there's one other amazing thing that you're doing. The goody bag. Well, my kids used to only let us go to these events because we would come home with a goody bag. There'd be all sorts of weird stuff like nipple bomb. And I don't know, my kids are just like, oh, this is amazing. There will be nipple bomb. All right, look at that. So I'm like, enjoy. One of them was like pure olive oil and it had oregano in it. I'm like, I'm putting this on my pasta. So there's the goody bags too. But I know some people are going to be listening and be like, OK, Los Angeles, you get this. What about us? Are there going to be expansion into these types of events, not just
[36:06] ones for providers in other cities?
Sally Hayes[36:09] The plan is expansion. LA, New York and Atlanta are our big three. Things do move fast. So I planning for next year to be LA, New York and Atlanta to have all of these events and also things could move fast enough to have them in more cities as well. So I won't promise anything, but more is coming. And if you are listening and you're in a city that you want something like this, reach out and we'll see what we can do.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[36:38] Yeah. So that's what I was going to say. Reach out through the website.
Sally Hayes[36:41] Reach out through the website. My stuff's on there. You can also email me directly. I'm very active on Instagram as well. So I answer all the Instagrams. Feel free to message me and I'll chat with you and let's expand this.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[36:57] You're amazing. Thank you so much for the work that you're doing and for coming on the podcast to share more about it with us. We already mentioned, we are matricos.com.
Sally Hayes[37:06] We are matricos.com.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[37:08] What about the Instagram? Where do we find you there?
Sally Hayes[37:11] Instagram is also, we are matricos. There is a period between we and are, and that's probably our most active social media. We're lightly on some other ones, but that's probably the best one so far.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[37:25] Amazing. I'm going to go check out the website right now. Thank you again for joining me and at home. Thanks for listening to informed pregnancy for more pregnancy and parenting information just like this. So visit us online at informedpregnancy.com.
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A month after giving birth, actress Aimee Carrero reflects after allowing time to process the experience and she discusses what it’s been like settling into motherhood.
Start with the first of her three part pregnancy and birth journey here.
Connect with the guest
@aimeecarrero
Informed Pregnancy Media and Mahmee present an all new podcast! One Way or a Mother is a new narrative podcast from Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC. Each season is an intimate story of one woman, one pregnancy, and all of the preparations, emotions, and personal history leading up to the birth. Episodes feature the expectant mother along with her family, doctors, and birth work team.
AI-generated transcript with speaker labels — may contain errors, especially names and medical terms. Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC appears in blue; Aimee Carrero in orange.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:00] She first joined us days after giving birth, still physically healing, still emotionally unraveling the story as she spoke. She was processing in real time. The emotions were raw, the storytelling unfiltered, and I was moved again and again, including when she spoke about her not-yet-born daughter, and she said things like, I just didn't want that for her. Just because I really desired and needed a vaginal birth experience, I didn't want her to suffer. Now, about a month later, she's had time to reflect. The intensity's softened just enough to make room for perspective and the beginning stages of settling into motherhood. I'm pregnancy-focused chiropractor Dr. Elia Berlin,
[1:47] and you're listening to the Informed Pregnancy podcast. Amy Carrera-Rock, welcome back to the podcast.
Aimee Carrero[2:06] Oh my gosh, thank you for having me back. I wanna thank you for this opportunity because it feels like you said, it was such a raw time. I think I was seven days postpartum when we last spoke, and I was just thinking, it's really good for people to hear the unvarnished version of what it can't look like. It doesn't look like that for everyone, but I also wanted to offer up a month later how things have changed in case people are interested because there is so much light at the end of that tunnel. So I'm so grateful to be back here with you.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[2:45] I don't know about anybody else, but I am very interested, so much so that we've never done a four-part series here in the first one ever.
Aimee Carrero[2:54] Now I feel pressure. I gotta come up with some jokes, some good stories. No, I'm honored.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:00] All right, so last time we spoke, like you said, it was just seven days after having a birth, not just a birth, but a cesarean birth, not just a cesarean birth, but an unplanned cesarean birth, and I would go one step further and say, cesarean being the opposite of what you had planned and thought about and put together, and you really were, you were processing in real time some of the things that you said, even when I listened back to the episode when it aired just recently, I got chills and a little weepy because the feelings were so just strong and real, and you, my friend, do not hold back. So now the baby is a month old, and you've had a little time to reflect,
[3:42] and I bet, hate to promise a fifth episode, but a few months from now it'll feel even different yet again, but tell me about the few weeks that have gone by.
Aimee Carrero[3:51] You know, what's really interesting is that I would, like I do with anything that doesn't make sense to me, I just take to Google and I'm like, why do I feel so sad? Is this postpartum depression? You know, candidly, I stayed on an SSRI during pregnancy because I do tend to have depression and have for many, many years been on SSRI, so I thought I was gonna skate by easy, you know, regarding baby blues, postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety, and one of the things I saw was, so if it lasts two weeks, it's baby blues, if it lasts more than that, it's postpartum, and I was like, well, we'll see on day 14, and so you spoke to me on day seven,
[4:35] or we spoke on day seven, and around day 10, a little fog started to lift, and then by day 14, I'll be damned, I felt pretty good, not, you know, how I feel now, but I do feel I was like one of the lucky ones where maybe it just was that hormonal crash that people get post-birth, I think it's like day two or three, that huge estrogen drop or progesterone drop, I'm not really sure which hormone it is, or maybe it's a combination of all of it, but I was really lucky, so by day 14, I could look at pictures from my pregnancy, I could look at pictures from my C-section, and I could enjoy my time with my baby without wanting her back in my body, you know, in a way that I think a lot of people think,
[5:24] oh, if I just could be pregnant one more day, you know, knowing the person that I know was going to be born, and enjoy that closeness that I'll never really have again, as far as like her being in my body, and now I can think about that in like a super like removed way, but at the time, I really had a desire to squeeze her down back through the sun roof, I guess, where she came out, and you know, it was really hard.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:48] Well, just because you're in a C-section
Aimee Carrero[5:49] doesn't mean you can't shove her back in, Vashma. That's true, that's true. So yeah, again, I feel really lucky that it didn't linger, and I think for so many, it does linger. I don't know if the SSRI was helpful in that, but it also, at the end of when we spoke last, you had mentioned, you know, some resources you were gonna send me, and I explored some of those resources, and it's been so game-changing for me to see a therapist that is focused on transitions in life, you know, and I think motherhood is like the biggest transition I've ever been through, so that's really helped. I've also done some cranial sacral therapy.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[6:26] Oh man, that's great.
Aimee Carrero[6:28] The first day this woman like touched my body, like the first minute I just started sobbing. So yeah, I've also been really proactive, but I do think I got lucky as far as it did naturally lift for me, that sort of fog.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[6:42] I mean, right when I talk to you, you seem to be going through psychological whiplash, and just still reliving the moments, that crazy build-up to going into labor, all the various stages of the labor itself. Another thing that resonated with me, just sticks in my mind, is when you said when you had your water broken, that you felt a strong sense of grief, and you said it's the last time I could provide a safe home for her.
Aimee Carrero[7:11] Yes. That made me cry also. Oh, it was totally unexpected to feel that way, because my belly felt smaller, and then all of a sudden she felt smaller to me, because you're holding all this water. And now that she's out, I can look back and think, oh, this girl, I mean, she needs my protection as her mother, and always will, but she can really handle, and maybe it's because she's my baby, but she's such a strong presence. I don't know if I mentioned this, but the doctor who delivered her was like, she bit my finger on the way out, and I should have known. She came out swinging, and I think she's perfect for me. Everybody's like, oh, are you so in love?
[7:50] I'm like, she's perfect for me. She's perfect for our family, because she fits like an old shoe. She just fits right in, and I look back on those memories of birth now, and they have, instead of a tinge of sadness, they have a tinge of she wanted to come out the way she wanted to come out, and she chose her birth, and just like she chose us as her parents, and it's gotta be for a reason. If I could go back and do it again, it's still not how I would prefer it, but those feelings of intense grief have abated, relaxed, and they've been replaced by gratitude for the person that is here. The more time I spend with my daughter, the less time I spend thinking about
[8:34] how she came into this world. It's almost like I'm building more memories with her than I can ever have from that 30-hour period, and that's been very healing.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:45] I think last time I spoke to you, you said that you were crying more than ever in your life.
Aimee Carrero[8:51] And I'm not a big crier.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:52] Yeah, you don't seem like a big crier, and that was day seven. It sounds like by day 10, 14, things eased up a lot, and then you started to take advantage of the resources, the help. How are you emotionally now?
Aimee Carrero[9:07] I feel like somebody turned on the lights in the room, and that feels really good. I do still feel, to kind of borrow the words of the therapist that I've been seeing who's wonderful. I feel like I'm in the upside down a little bit still, and I think that's just being in newborn land where I'm just like, whoa, what happened to our lives? It's like the apartment is a mess. Our days are the schedule. What schedule? You know what I mean? It's like everything is sort of in disarray, but it feels like normal. This is where I'm supposed to be. It doesn't feel like something's wrong. It feels like, okay, this is a season, and we're going through it, and trying to soak up every minute of her still being tiny,
[9:48] and still wanting to sleep on her chest, and still wanting the contact naps, because I'm sure there will be a day where she won't want that, and trying to be grateful for the time we're in now. But I do go back to work on Monday. I mean, that's how this all got started.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:05] Yeah, I know. How has physical recovery been?
Aimee Carrero[10:10] You know, I think compared to some of my girlfriends that I've spoken to, I think I got off pretty easy. It didn't feel that way to me, especially in the beginning, because I wasn't also prepared for it. I didn't have any of the stuff. You know, like I ended up getting a bed rail in order to help myself get out of bed to pee so my husband wouldn't have to like, you know, carry me to the bathroom. Stuff like that, like a wet pillow wedge. I didn't have any of that stuff. So it was hard in that regard, and there was pain for about a few days, but I got up and walking. I still, you know, I'm not cleared to work out or anything yet. It hasn't been six weeks yet,
[10:45] but I think overall I'm doing pretty well. I'm, you know, walking as much as I want. I'm doing all the things that I wanted, but those first days were difficult because I had imagined myself being able to like spring out of bed and grab my baby when she started crying and feed her on demand and do all these things that it ended up, you know, physically I couldn't do them in those early days, but now I feel like I can, and that's made a huge difference.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:08] How are you preparing for getting back on set?
Aimee Carrero[11:12] How am I preparing? Well, if I'm being practical about it, I'm actually starting to learn my scenes today, which is Wednesday, no, Tuesday, because my brain is literal Swiss cheese. I had an audition like a few days ago to put on tape, and usually I can learn a scene within 30 minutes. It took me eight hours to do this tape. It's like, I can't retain any information. I don't know what is going on. So yeah, I'm starting to learn the scenes now so that I don't show up on set and suddenly not know what I'm doing. Like I've never acted a day in my life, but my husband has been wonderful, and you know, I was like kind of weepy about having to go back to work,
[11:58] and he's like, well, we'll go with you the first day just to help, you know, help rip the bandaid off. Like we'll go with you, and I was like, are you sure? So it'll be good. So that feels like less scary knowing that they'll be there.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:09] After the pod, I could definitely run lines with you.
Aimee Carrero[12:13] Yeah, great.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:15] I mean, I would think for most people intimidating
Aimee Carrero[12:18] to be back on camera right after having a baby. Oh yeah, I mean, I've just had to make peace with it. At this point, I think this is really the weirdest thing I've ever said, and you're a doctor, maybe you can tell me. It's a medical mystery, okay? I have this one hooded eye. I've lived with it, it's fine. We fix it with makeup. When I got pregnant, no hooded eye, it went away. I will send you photos. Nobody believes me. They're like, no, no, no, I'm like, but actually my eye unhooded, and I looked great. I thought my face looked more chiseled than ever when I was pregnant, and then I had a baby, and the hooded eye is back, the chisel is gone.
[12:55] Like it's never gonna be the way it was. And I'm like, am I gonna look worse on camera than I looked nine months pregnant? I think the answer is yes. The answer is yes. But you know, I've had to make peace with it because, you know, and maybe the first day back, I'll feel differently, you know, but right now I choose to look at this as when my daughter's grown up, or when, you know, she's whatever, like a few years old, like I can look back on this and be like, yeah, I was, you know, freshly postpartum. She was only a month old when I went back to work, and you know, look at the first half of the season and think I was eight months pregnant, nine months pregnant when I filmed this.
[13:29] So it feels like a little time capsule, even though I don't feel like I'm gonna light up the town with my hotness currently. It might be nice to have it commemorated in a way that's really just there forever.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:43] So it's interesting. Pregnancy hormones have released things that are too tight. So that would be my guess around the hooded eye.
Aimee Carrero[13:50] Oh, interesting.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:52] You know, what we see more clinically is people who have conditions that are related to excessive tension that are during pregnancy. So people who have headaches, migraines famously all throughout their life, they feel a lot better during pregnancy. Even sometimes, let's say carpal tunnel or sciatic or other things like that, they get better because everything loosens up. TMJ sometimes. And people who don't have those things sometimes get them just during pregnancy.
Aimee Carrero[14:19] Right, right.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:21] Because they become too loose, let's say. But I wonder if it's related to that. That would be my guess. That's number one. Number two, it's so funny that you say that because right when you popped on, I mean, it's an audio podcast, but we see each other. When you popped on, I'm like, well, you look different. And you're like, what? I'm like, I don't know, more chiseled. And it's funny because I'm face blind. Like, I'm not-
Aimee Carrero[14:41] That's right. Maybe I've cured your face blindness.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:44] No, it's your shoulders and your arms
Aimee Carrero[14:46] look super chiseled. All right, I'll take it. I will, but I was, what I told you was that-
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:51] There's no hooded arm.
Aimee Carrero[14:51] There's no hooded arm, thank God. But the hooded eye is rough as an actor because you're in a closeup most of the time. And now no one will unsee it. Not that anyone's watching my stuff. But like, if you do, you'll know I have a hooded eye and you'll catch it immediately. But I think it's a little bit because I'm pumping a lot. I didn't think I would be on a breastfeeding journey or any kind of journey that ended in me feeding my baby with my body. But I think because of the birth I had, suddenly when my milk came in, I was like, whoa, okay, it's doing something that I wanted to do, and I felt so betrayed by my body during the birth process. And so when my milk came in,
[15:29] I was like, well, maybe I'll just go with it. Maybe this is a thing that I can just do. And now it's grown into exclusively pumping, feeding her mostly from breast milk because I'm still upping my supply. But I think that's helped in the chisel department. But still not as chiseled as I was at the end there, man, I looked pretty damn good. I will send you photos.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[15:50] All right. But also I can't wait to see the hooded eye in 8K high resolution.
Aimee Carrero[15:56] Yeah, oh, you can, it's there. Now you're gonna see, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so bizarre, but it is what it is. Gives me character.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:04] I love your character. I'm gonna take a little break when we come back. I wanna find out more about the adventures of motherhood, don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:23] Welcome back. We are talking to the famous hooded eye, Amy Carrero-Roch. That's all I can think of now.
Aimee Carrero[16:30] Yeah, that's all you can see now.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:31] So let's go in this order because now that you've had the baby, what is motherhood like compared to what you thought it would be like? What are the highest? What are the lows? What are the hard parts? The rewarding parts? Share it with me.
Aimee Carrero[16:44] Motherhood to me feels like I'm a coconut and someone took a machete and just cracked me open. And now there's water, there's flesh, there's just a whole world in there that I didn't even know existed as far as the multitudes that one can contain. It really at first felt incredibly scary and you and I have done some energy work. I think that I keep my heart pretty guarded. I always have. And I cannot do that now. It's weird. It's everywhere I look, I see her face, every story, I can't watch it. Certain movies are hard to see because now I'm thinking of it in this lens as a mother or whatever. And I think that probably gets balanced as time goes by
[17:34] but that's what it's felt like so far. It's felt like I was this kind of brown, unassuming coconut and someone just took a machete and cracked me open and now I'm just like, here I am, hope you like it. I'm scared, I'm exposed to the elements and it's just, but it does feel like an overwhelming sense of love and my heart is now outside of my body. And I know people say that and it was always so annoying when people said that to me because I wasn't a parent. But to me, it felt like a really scary thing because that's not how I go about my life. My husband on the other hand is kind of like, always wears his heart on the sleeve. He's like a live wire.
[18:19] He enjoys feeling a lot and that's how he goes through life and I just never have done that. I'm a little more guarded. So I would say that's a high and also a low because it's forced me to contend with a lot of fences that I've put around myself and forced me to take a really strong, good look at my, what's the word I'm looking for? It's a Swiss cheese brain. This is why I can't remember lines. But how I choose to move about the world, I guess. My defensiveness, it's been really hard to kind of contend with that because now I feel like I just don't have the ability to do that anymore and that's been pretty scary.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[18:58] Yeah. Sometimes when your heart check was very guarded, I might've called it like a nuclear bunker.
Aimee Carrero[19:05] You did, I think, yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:06] And there was such a richness in there. There was such a depth of energy in there. It just really closed off. And usually when that happens, you're protecting yourself from something. So the idea of, I'm just kind of interested in your analogy, the machete on the coconut because- It feels violent. It seems violent, but also that coconut has also such sweet, beautiful, rich nectar. That's one way to get it out.
Aimee Carrero[19:38] Yeah, totally.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:39] But that's not the way where you make a little hole and you kind of put a little straw in there and just suck out what you're looking for at the moment.
Aimee Carrero[19:46] Yeah, no, no, no.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:48] I just wonder, whatever it is that you were protecting yourself from or your body was protecting you from, does that feel super vulnerable now?
Aimee Carrero[19:56] So vulnerable. I think part of the reason that I am an actor is because as a child, I must have thought, this is a safe way to feel my feelings, right? It's protected in a narrative. I know the beginning, middle, and end. And this is a safe way to explore humaneness, humanity because there is sort of a little bit of a veil. And now I don't think that veil is there anymore for me and it is really scary. It has felt really violent, but it also feels like, damn, I'm living my life. You know what I mean? I am living it now as far as it's out there in the open, exposed to the elements. And that feels good in a way. It's scary, but it feels good because it's taken me 36 years to live my life that way
[20:45] and maybe I needed that machete-like experience in order to do it. Because I've always had a desire to drop my guard a little more. And obviously with people that I really love and trust and know, I think I am quite vulnerable. But now I'm just like, I have this daughter who I can't protect forever. You know what I mean? She's gonna go out into the world, God willing. I will arm her with the confidence and all of the things that she needs to be a functioning member of society. And that's really scary because I don't know who she's gonna meet. I don't know the circumstances that she's gonna face. You can only hope that you have prepared them enough.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:24] You just said God willing, which made me think of this question. You do have those Catholic roots.
Aimee Carrero[21:29] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:30] Did becoming a mom change you at all spiritually or bring up any of your spirituality, whether in a religious context or not?
Aimee Carrero[21:37] You know, that's funny. I think I've been too focused on the physical and the mental of it all, that I haven't considered the spirituality of it. But I guess in just, and I'm sure every parent feels this way, when you look into your child's eyes and you can really see them, you can see them. And to someone else, they're like, oh, they're newborn. What do you see? They're just pooping, eating and sleeping. But now I'm like, no, even in the womb, I felt, or like during the birth experience, I felt, I think I told you, I was like, God, she's working so hard. She's just a hard worker. And that's been so true of her. She's got like tension and tightness
[22:18] and we've taken cranial sacral therapy and she had a bad latch and she worked so hard and she's a month old, but I can see the spirit in her. And there is an inherent spirituality to being able to connect with someone who can't speak back, can't really communicate other than just in this telepathic way. I don't know. But yeah, I guess as she gets older, maybe those things will come up, but it hasn't come up in a way that I've had to really contend with yet.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[22:47] Is her personality familiar to you from when she was on the inside or are you not that connected?
Aimee Carrero[22:54] Well, it's a two-parter answer. She does feel familiar to me and her personality is really the only thing that feels familiar to me because she is the spitting image of my husband, which is also familiar, but not like familiar to me as far as like, oh, I see myself in her or whatever. Physically, there is no resemblance. I'm like the Carrero jeans just want to sleep in this process.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:16] No hooded eye?
Aimee Carrero[23:17] No hooded eye. I'm thankful for that. She's got blue eyes. She's very Caucasian looking so much so that when my parents were here and we took her out for lunch, just the three of us, and it's been really hot in New York, she turned this color that only really white people turn when they get really hot. And we didn't know. We're like, we gotta get her home. We were just so freaked out by it.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:40] So you have a panic, a panic at the diner.
Aimee Carrero[23:42] So yeah, there's little things like that. But I do sense that she is, I've sensed it when she was in my body that she is like a real contender. She's a real fighter. And she's got a lot to offer the world. I think she came here and it's maybe not her first go around and she has got things to do. And I see that in her now. But as far as do I feel connected, that took a little more time and it's a slowly developing thing. I think it's because I mentioned this in maybe our last conversation, but I don't remember a lot of her birth. And so I think that that has been kind of like, she wasn't here one minute and then she was there. There was no sort of transition for me.
[24:31] So as far as like I look at her and I just can't picture her in my body, if that makes sense. She feels familiar, but I just can't put those two things together as far as like I grew her, she was in my body for this long, the person that's in front of me now. So I'm working on it, but I am grateful those first few days especially that something biological really takes over. And even if you don't feel that instant connection as far as like, oh my gosh, this is my baby, you feel a biological need to protect and to nurture and that is enough until you can build a relationship. And so I think that helping feed her from my body has helped me bond with her.
[25:14] Also those early days I couldn't do much and it made me not feel like much of a mother because I had all of these dreams of like being in the trenches and getting up and doing all this stuff and because of the surgery, like I couldn't do that with any kind of ease. And so it ended up being my lovely husband was doing 85% of the work. And that made me feel like I didn't have confidence like when it did come time to change her diaper or to feed her, like I didn't know how she liked her milk or I didn't know how she liked to be changed. And obviously now as I've recovered, I like to think my husband and I are totally interchangeable as far as if I'm not here, he can do it.
[25:47] If he's not here, I can do it. But that was hard at the beginning. And as I've recovered mentally and physically, the bond is only getting stronger as days go by. But for me personally, and maybe there are people out there who wonder if this will be them, I didn't feel that instant connection. When they put her in my arms finally, like an hour later, I was like, I know this is my baby, but I don't feel the things that everybody says that you feel in that moment. And I think that's okay, you know.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[26:16] Totally. Are there any things that you've learned going through the postpartum so far process that you didn't know or maybe couldn't have known without going through it or maybe things that you wish somebody would've told you?
Aimee Carrero[26:29] Yeah, I wish somebody had warned me about this baby blues thing. Cause if we're lucky enough to have another baby and do this again in the future, I will literally write post-it notes and put them places for me to see to remind me that it's a body response. You know, this is a hormonal release and it will pass. But I understand why people don't talk about it because I get it because I think nobody wants to scare a pregnant woman. You know, when people ask me now, like, you know, how's it been? I could give them the real unvarnished truth, which is, hey, man, it's highs and lows. Like you're exhausted. You're also very happy. You love this little baby,
[27:04] but you miss your old life and you're kind of grieving, you know, being able to like step out the door or go have a martini at, you know, 9 p.m. and things like that. Like you miss those things, but you also have this wonderful human that has entered your family. So that's the kind of better picture of a more well-rounded answer, but you don't want to scare anybody off. You know, you kind of want them to have their own experience. So I kind of understand why people don't talk about it. But when I was really in the trenches of these baby blues, I reached out to a lot of my friends. Every single one of them was like, oh yeah, these were dark days.
[27:38] And I'm like, why didn't anybody tell me? You know, I would have prepared, but I don't know if you can really prepare, you know?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[27:44] Yeah. I usually compare it to just rocky terrain. It's always rocky terrain. And sometimes I think preparation is helpful, meaning if you're in the right vehicle, rocky terrain can be kind of enjoyable in a way that you'd want to do it again. But if you're in the wrong, like if you're in the family sedan, you're going to have a crap ride.
Aimee Carrero[28:03] Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw this woman at the pediatrician the other day and she had a brand new baby, I mean, tiny, tiny. And I was like, how old, you know? And she was like, three days. I was like, how are you feeling? Thinking that I was going to impart like some great wisdom on her. And she goes, yeah, I'm feeling like I had a baby three days ago. And she goes, but it's my third baby, so I'm good. You know what I mean? And I was like, okay, so, you know what I mean? Like at this point, day three, I was a mess. I couldn't leave the house, you know? But I think that it probably gets a little bit easier knowing what to expect. If you expect the rocky terrain,
[28:38] you can prepare accordingly. You can pack the right things. You can get the four wheel drive. I was just sort of like in this, I don't know, like a Porsche, you know, getting ready to just take newborn photos with my baby and look perfect and feel great. And instead I have this, you know, I'm in a diaper, she's in a diaper. You have this incision, you know what I mean? It wasn't the thing I was thinking. And I also spent a lot of time preparing for birth and I don't think I spent enough time preparing for the fourth trimester, you know, the postpartum period. I remember my doula saying to me when we met with her early on, she was like, well, do you have plans for a postpartum doula?
[29:14] And I was like, what would I need that for? I'd rather just hire a massage therapist because that's probably what I'll want. And I'm like, no, you know, I would go back and maybe take her up on that and have a community that, you know, is thankfully for me was readily available when I called, but I didn't know to have them on call. You know what I mean? So yeah, I think for any expecting parents out there, I would say remind yourself that it's rocky terrain and sometimes it can get really, really weird and bumpy and the night can get very dark and long, but it doesn't last forever. You know, it's a normal part of the process too, I think.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[29:52] I think what you're saying is so important and also so hard to drive home when the baby isn't here yet. So my wife sometimes says that people spend the nine months of pregnancy preparing for the 24 hours that might be the birth and most no time at all preparing for the 24 years that follow, you know.
Aimee Carrero[30:12] Yeah, she's so right.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[30:13] The house, you know, we say that, but in the pregnancy, it's so hard to focus on later. And if you feel good, especially during the pregnancy, everything's going well. It's a problem you don't have. So it's really hard to envision what it will be like and put any time or resources into it. But I'm glad you brought it up. There's two resources that I know of. One of them already exists on our streaming platform Informed Pregnancy Plus, and that's her workshop called the After Birth Plan. It's a great workshop for couples to watch, ideally before the baby comes and everything afterwards. And it's bite-sized pieces that you can watch together and discuss and sort of prepare yourself,
[30:52] prepare your relationship for the birth. In a brand new series, it's going to be coming out pretty soon called The Fourth Try, which is a fourth trimester. So we're definitely doing our part to try to help with those preparations. Before we go to break, tell me one more thing. Do you have postpartum rituals? Some people do the belly binding. Some people do the bee steaming.
Aimee Carrero[31:15] Bee steaming, that's the goopified version. I don't know if it's a very Latin thing, but I wore a faja, which is like a belly binder, but like a real intense one from like a Brazilian post tummy tuck website that somebody told me about. They're like, this will snatch you right back up. And I wore it and it was like really supportive and really good for like a few weeks. And then I realized like, oh, this is maybe I'm relying on this too much and my muscles need to kind of come back online. So I stopped wearing it. But yeah, so I would wear the faja like 24 hours a day. And it was like very tough compression. And I try and succeed. I have yet to not have a day where I don't shower.
[31:56] And that feels good. It feels like a win. If I can get a shower and it doesn't matter if it's just at the end of the day, the beginning of the day, that's an important ritual for me. And pumping has become a ritual too.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:07] Are you doing things specific for scar healing?
Aimee Carrero[32:10] You know, when I went in for my like checkup, my doctor was like, here use the silicone patches, which I've been diligent about. And he mentioned C-section scar massage, which I've sort of been doing, but then I realized I didn't ask him if I needed to wait the six weeks before I really dug in because it feels tight. It feels like it needs loosening up. You know what I mean? So I don't know if you have to wait or if you can start right away. So I've been doing red light therapy on it, hoping that works and like very sort of light massage. But I think it requires like pretty strong massage in order to get that fascia broken up and stuff.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:46] Well, there's multiple layers, right? They cut through a lot of layers. So the official layers, you can definitely get some effect with the red light and with the lighter massage. And then to get the deeper layers, you kind of need more of a powerful device for the wavelength of light to penetrate like a laser and also deeper massage. And then people start doing pelvic floor therapy.
Aimee Carrero[33:08] Oh, I'm getting back on that because I had my first pelvic floor therapy at 37 weeks and this poor woman was like, girl, you got a lot of work to do. She was like, your pelvic floor is a mess. The left side is super, super tight. The right side is tight, but the left side is tighter. I don't know what you're gonna do. And I was like, I guess I'll come back. I don't know, but I left like with $300 worth of dilators and lube and all this stuff. And I'm like 37 weeks pregnant. I'm not gonna start doing this now, right? So I'm gonna wait until I get the final yes and then I'm gonna get back to work on that because it feels like my pelvic floor is like actually okay.
[33:45] Like I'm not peeing myself or anything like that. But I think it probably took a beating or even beforehand, it wasn't great. So I need to figure that out because hopefully in my next pregnancy, if I do have a chance at a V back, maybe that will be helpful.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:01] Oh, these are things we should talk about in the third segment. Let's take a little break. We'll be right back. All right, only minutes before she goes back to work, we're talking to Amy Carrera-Rock and as always, just an honest, open reel. And it's funny, last time we talked to you you were literally processing the birth and now I feel you and hear you literally processing the postpartum. As you think about the answers to the questions they just come out and the feelings are still happening. I mean, you talk about your husband like we would all wanna marry him if it didn't work out. How was having the baby on a relationship?
Aimee Carrero[34:50] Well, we've been married almost 10 years and I think that has been very helpful. I know that not everybody has that kind of time, you know what I mean, to get married and to wait a long time before having children. But that foundation has been very helpful and we've had a lot of time to work on our relationship. So that's great. But I will say it brings out your best and worst qualities in that you fall into patterns that you've maybe tried to work really hard on in your relationship and you fall back into those kinds of… So I'll give you an example. My husband is a fixer. He will readily sort of abandon his own needs in order to make you feel good, fix something for you.
[35:35] And he does it with such frequency that it eventually builds up and he just burns out. And when I was really struggling those early days, I remember being in the kitchen and just sobbing in his arms and I remember looking up at him and I was like, what about you? Like, you seem like you're handling this great. Like, do you have no feelings about this? And he just like burst into tears and recounted a memory from the birth that was really triggering for him and really scary for him. And I had no idea that he felt this way. And it became not an argument, but later on we had a lot of conversations about when you don't tell me these things, actually you think you're protecting me
[36:18] and you think that you're helping me, but actually it makes me feel really alone because I feel like I'm having all these conflicted feelings about the birth and about this new role as a mother. And I feel like it's no struggle for you, you're just nailing it and we're supposed to be doing this together. So you do revert back to that. And we've worked so hard in our relationship to make sure that he's not excluding me from the work just because he feels it's easier or it's inconvenient for me and for him to deal with my reaction or whatever. Does that make sense? I don't know if it's making a lot of sense.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[36:51] I can relate 100% actually myself and our relationship. And I think to generalize a little bit, like a lot of male-female relationships are like that and then tend to be more fix-oriented and less sharing with what we're feeling.
Aimee Carrero[37:06] Yeah, yeah. It can create problems, yeah. For sure. And so I think that's been the challenge in this time. It can be stressful when you don't have sleep and we're trying to juggle me going back to work, him being the primary parent while I'm at work and realizing when we made those plans how much more support we need, right? So we're trying to get some support, someone to either come and walk the dog or things like that, logistical things that you can't possibly really know that you'll need until the baby's here. And it's been really stressful. And when we're stressed, I sort of get really demanding and get bigger. My emotions get bigger and he sort of retreats
[37:50] and gets smaller and gets more interior, right? Which is not good at all for the dynamic. So I'm working on getting a little smaller and he's working on getting a little bigger so we can meet each other in the middle and actually have a conversation that is, or have a solution to these problems. But when you are stressed, that's when all that work kind of goes out the window. But I think we've been okay overall. That's my biggest sort of concern. I think we're doing pretty well. But the other day, and this is a story we will tell Inez forever, it was like a Sunday. We're so tired, bleary-eyed, and she's going through a weird cluster feeding thing.
[38:29] It's not weird, but she's going through a cluster feeding phase. And that night she'd slept four hours, which is huge. And so we're feeling great. And we actually have to wake her up to feed her and it was his turn. So he wakes her up, he changes her diaper, then feeds her, puts her back to bed. And then she starts getting up about an hour later and it's my turn. So I pick her up to finish the feed that she didn't finish. And I feel like this wet warmth on my arm. And I'm like, oh God, it's a blowout. Oh, this sucks. Why did it happen on my turn? I have to change the onesie and I do everything. And so I take her to the changing table and I take the onesie off
[39:08] and I realize she doesn't have a diaper on. He was so tired that he thought he'd change her diaper, but he actually never put the diaper back on. So it's stuff like that that you remember, you look back on it and you just have to laugh because we're two very capable adults, but when it comes to this tiny, almost eight pound child, we're just totally hopeless. But thankfully she's very patient.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[39:32] It really is, it really is.
Aimee Carrero[39:34] But yeah, I could see how it could be very difficult on relationships if there isn't a strong communication. Because even with our relationship and there is a very strong communication and very strong friendship, it's still been a challenge for sure. It stresses, it stresses the relationship. Ultimately, it'll make you stronger even.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[39:55] Yeah, I think so for sure. That's kind of how stress works, it stresses and then when your bones start to get weak, they're like, do more weight bearing exercises because it stresses the bone and the bone gets stronger and the relationship is like that too. You mentioned, should you have another baby, you would think about a VBAC. And that just makes me come full circle on the episode, like looking back at the birth experience you had, how would you do things differently?
Aimee Carrero[40:26] You know, it's hard to say because of the last time we spoke, I was filled with regrets on if I had just done this differently, maybe I would have had a different outcome and maybe I would have. I think if I could go back and birth Inez again, like my daughter who is here now, the only thing I would do differently is I think I wouldn't have induced. I would have taken the less maternity leave time as hard as that would have been and given it a few extra days or a week and see how that had changed things. And maybe it wouldn't have changed anything because I do think that babies, they maybe just come into the world how they're going to come into the world
[41:07] and how they sort of choose to. Emergency is not withstanding. And so, yeah, I think next time, if we're lucky enough for there to be a next time, I would like to pursue a VBAC. I would also like to have the team that I so carefully crafted in LA that I feel so comfortable with that I wasn't able to birth with because of the work situation in New York. And I don't know if it'll work, but I do know that the doctor I had here when I had my follow-up with him said, I sewed you up in this way, I don't know, like double stitch, I have no idea, but he was like, gives you a really good shot at a VBAC if that's what you want. So he did have that in mind,
[41:49] which I was really grateful for because I would still like to have that experience, but I don't know if it's in the cards for me, but I would like to try. If it's one thing about me is I'll always try again.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[42:01] Yeah, I mean, I still can't wait to get back here, even for the postpartum care even a few months after the baby comes. It crushes me that you're on the other side of the country.
Aimee Carrero[42:12] I know, me too. I want to be back in LA. Love to see you, do you do babies by chance?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[42:18] Do you treat babies? I used to, but I don't know about in our practice, we have pediatric care.
Aimee Carrero[42:22] Oh my gosh. I can't wait to get Inez in for a lot of that stuff because she's got tension and I would love to see her relaxed and loose.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[42:33] When I was doing doula work, so if the parents wanted me to, I would adjust the baby before leaving the house or check the baby.
Aimee Carrero[42:42] Wow, that's so cool. What a great thing to do.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[42:45] And then we had one baby that came out struggling a little to get the breath. And so I just was like, do you want me to check her neck real quick? And we did it. So I think the baby was like maybe 90 seconds old. People are always like, oh, can you adjust kids? I'm like, yeah. They're like, how old was your youngest patient? Like I guess 90 seconds.
Aimee Carrero[43:07] Yeah, 90 seconds. That's incredible. Yeah, I love that. I love that.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[43:12] I wonder, some people have a lot of feeling around the cesarean scar. It's numbness, sometimes it's pain, sometimes emotional things. Do you feel anything when you see it or touch it?
Aimee Carrero[43:27] You know, as soon as I got the C-section, I started like a deep dive on C-section stuff. And I saw some people write about it, like on Reddit, they were like, I can't even touch it. I break down into tears. It feels very triggering to me. The memories for me are enough. So I made it a point to like look at it every day to sort of desensitize my connection to it as far as like I massage it every day. I touch it, I look at it because I don't want that to happen. And it may still, you know, down the line. I hope it doesn't. But my mom had a C-section with me and my brother. And so I grew up seeing a C-section scar as a part of a normal body. And I think that is helpful for me.
[44:12] And it helps that he did a great job. It looks really good, my doctor, but it feels weird. It does feel strange. I have a little bit of numbness, not emotional numbness but physical numbness around the incision which I don't know how long that will last. I'm trying to not make that a thing for myself because for better or worse, I mean, I think for better she's healthy, she's here. This is how she chose to enter the world. And you know, I've always liked tattoos. This is like a version of that, you know?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[44:41] Yeah, cool. That numbness lasts for a long time. The nerve numbness can last for a long time. And I would keep massaging using your red light therapy.
Aimee Carrero[44:48] Okay, yeah. I even saw somebody use like a cupping device that you can kind of go back and forth, back and forth and kind of release the fascia.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[44:56] Scraping, like a gua sha.
Aimee Carrero[44:58] Yeah, but then there's like a, yeah, there's a cup. Yeah, yeah, it's cool. I can't wait to do that. I didn't know if I had to wait the six weeks but I'm ready.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[45:07] You know, in the office I start at five weeks
Aimee Carrero[45:09] when we do it for you, but. Oh God, that would be great. We don't have that stuff here. I mean, maybe there is. I'm like here, as if I live on Mars. Like we don't have that here on Mars.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[45:19] You're on our little island.
Aimee Carrero[45:20] Yeah, I'm like in New York City. I'm sure somebody does C-section scar massage.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[45:25] So funny. You said two things now that I'm gonna end with here. One, you said about being an actor, like how it helps you kind of feel feelings without, you know, having to feel them all the way. Like I, as a theater kid, I always said something similar to that. Just like, I like being somebody else for a little while.
Aimee Carrero[45:44] Yeah, oh, totally, totally. And not everybody does it that way. You know, there are like method actors who really infuse their own experiences into it. I like to work in a more imaginative kind of way. I like to feel like someone else and make memories for them and write backstory. And that feels more fun for me, but maybe the empathy that I feel for them can lead me into, could be a way into that emotional life and that feels safe, but also exciting and creative.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[46:13] I think like they could have really big feelings that aren't my feelings, they're just their feelings.
Aimee Carrero[46:18] Yeah, totally, totally.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[46:19] I'm just gonna go to which they're having those feelings. Yeah. That really resonated with me. And just from an acting perspective, but I also wonder if you think your acting will change after the machete coconut.
Aimee Carrero[46:33] Yes, 100%. I don't know how it couldn't. I think that it will probably, hopefully make me a better actor. I think it will because there is just no shutting that off. There is no shutting that off, you know, at least for right now. I'm sure that there are so many parents that make a living as actors. You know what I mean? I'm sure they're not going through life just like open veins all the time. You know, I'm sure it's a lot of the postpartum stuff too, but I like to think that it's gonna make me a better performer because I think that good performance always comes from a sense of empathy. You know, you gotta have a point of connection to these characters and to the stories
[47:14] in order to, I think, tell them in a genuine way. You know, if you don't feel empathy for a character, if you can't really understand where they're coming from, like you're dead in the water, in my opinion. So yeah, I think that it's only made me more empathetic, more just, you know, I can imagine more. I have more engine. I have more of a fountain now to kind of draw from.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[47:36] Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanna share about the whole experience, pregnancy, birth, postpartum?
Aimee Carrero[47:45] You know, I think you're so great to talk to that I think we hit everything that is of interest. But if it's one thing that I would like people to come away from this with is that, you know, my experience isn't going to be everybody's experience. Obviously there are people who have the, quote unquote, perfect birth, right? The birth they dreamed of and still feel, you know, the baby blues or feel postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety. And that's okay. I wanted to offer up this story and offer up the sort of epilogue. I just wanted to like offer that up because, like you said, it's rocky terrain, but I do want people to know that there is a paved road up ahead.
[48:27] It's a little less rocky and you will come out the other side of it. But it's a whirlwind and I'm sure it will continue to be as time goes on, as my daughter grows up, as my role in her life changes and my role in the world changes. But I wanted to come back and do this followup episode because I didn't wanna leave people with the impression that that's all there is because it is that, but then there is also so much more after.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[48:55] I appreciate that, thank you. And I think that at one month out, there is some kind of closure to that. And it's actually just beginning, the healing is just beginning, the closure is just beginning. When you look six weeks out, it's a whole different change. Three months out, it's a totally different thing. Six months to a year out. It's just gonna continue, but it's really cool to see that even just a month and you're already starting to feel that healing and that just the rawness of the emotions go in and the changes that come with the new journey, the new experience, new chapter that you're in.
Aimee Carrero[49:30] It's okay to rely on people. I think you were so generous to offer up a lot of resources. A lot of people in my life were so generous with their time and just listening to me. It's okay to lean on people, especially in this time. And you'll find that a lot of people have gone through what you're going through. And one thing that I find myself thinking about a lot is man, if I had just known what I know now, I would have checked in so much more. I would have known what to say. I would have showed up at somebody's house with a plate of food or whatever. I have a lot of that now. I have a lot of appreciation. I see someone pregnant walking down the street.
[50:04] I just wanna be like, listen, you're doing a great job. I want to offer up a lot of encouragement because you do what you can before you go through it yourself and you think you're saying all the right things or you're offering support. But now knowing what I know, I look back on my friends who have gone through this before me and I think, man, I am so sorry. I wish I would have checked in on you more. I wish we would have had more conversations or just shown up at your house and talked to you like an adult or whatever, giving you a chance to feel like yourself again.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[50:32] Yeah. I mean, I'm not pregnant, but you can always show up my house with a plate of food. Great, I got it. I got you. I gotta tell you, every time I talk to you, if I never had another guest and I just every week was talking to Amy, I would learn so much. I learned so much every time I talked to you and you every time make me laugh, you make me cry, and you make me feel things just the way that you share, so.
Aimee Carrero[50:59] Well, ditto to you. I'm always inspired by you, but in a little jealous, like one day I wanna be like you.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[51:06] Oh man, I wanna be like you. You're changing people's lives on the daily and that counts for a lot. Different, we're different belly powers.
Aimee Carrero[51:13] Yeah, that's true.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[51:15] Each care bear has their own belly power, but really I appreciate you and I appreciate the universe for connecting us and putting in my life. And I think our audience also, I'm sure, appreciates you for all the different, very real ways you've shared the experiences that you've had, so.
Aimee Carrero[51:30] Thank you so much. I feel exactly the same way. And I can't wait to get back to your office, your practice and bring my daughter and bring everyone I know. We're gonna spend the next several weeks prepping for that.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[51:43] You'll need it. All right, as we sign off, where can we find you online?
Aimee Carrero[51:48] At Amy Carrero on Instagram and this is like a shameless plug, but also there's a show that I'm on called Your Friends and Neighbors, which is on Apple and it's streaming the first season and we're filming the second season. And I think maybe it's of interest. Maybe you'll like it.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[52:06] I mean, first of all, it seems awesome. And second of all, now it's nothing else. I gotta check out the eye situation.
Aimee Carrero[52:12] Oh, and it's in full display the first season because I wasn't pregnant. So I had the eye. It's also John Hamm is in it and he's very easy to look at. Just putting that out there.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[52:21] Two of you, but also I'm gonna compare and contrast.
Aimee Carrero[52:25] Yeah, please.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[52:27] Pregnant you and not pregnant you.
Aimee Carrero[52:29] I have a collage. I went to the dermatologist the other day and I was like, explain this. And she was like, I can't.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[52:36] Yeah. All right. I look forward to watching it and who knows? I bet you'll be back on the pod down the road.
Aimee Carrero[52:42] I would love nothing more.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[52:44] Thank you again at home. Thanks for listening to Informed Pregnancy for more pregnancy and parenting information, just like this, visit us online at InformedPregnancy.com.
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Oklahoma City native Stephanie Entin has spent over 20 years in the birth space. She joins the podcast to discuss her work as a doula, dietician, prenatal yoga and meditation teacher, and birth photographer as well as two of her own very different births.
Informed Pregnancy Media and Mahmee present an all new podcast! One Way or a Mother is a new narrative podcast from Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC. Each season is an intimate story of one woman, one pregnancy, and all of the preparations, emotions, and personal history leading up to the birth. Episodes feature the expectant mother along with her family, doctors, and birth work team.
AI-generated transcript with speaker labels — may contain errors, especially names and medical terms. Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC appears in blue; Stephanie Entin in orange.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:00] She's been in the birth space for over 20 years as a doula, a dietitian, a prenatal yoga and meditation teacher, but it was her own births that transformed her the most. One lasted four exhausting days in the hospital, and the other unfolded gently at home. Through it all she held the camera and the space for countless others as a doula tug, capturing raw, powerful images of labor, birth, and the moments in between. I'm Pregnancy Focus Chiropractor, Dr. Elliott Berlin, and you're listening to the Informed Pregnancy Podcast. Stephanie Enton, welcome to the podcast.
Stephanie Entin[0:52] Thank you, Elliott. So good to see you.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:55] It's great to see you again. It's been a long time, and I don't even know if I remembered that you had so many credits to your work, like so many interesting different things. One yummier than the next. So I want to jump into each one of them. But before we do that, let's start at the beginning. Where are you from originally?
Stephanie Entin[1:16] I am originally from Oklahoma, Oklahoma City. Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:22] What was growing in Oklahoma like?
Stephanie Entin[1:24] It was simple, much more simple than Los Angeles. I do. I do. I miss the nature. I spent a large part of my childhood in nature. My grandpa had a farm with cattle and we rode horses. And my other grandmother had a garden. My other grandmother had peacocks and pigs and chickens. So I spent a lot of time in nature and growing up around animals. And I do miss that going to the lake in Los Angeles.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:53] They have pigs and chickens at Ralph's. Well, that's that's after you can't cuddle them. You can't cuddle them. I mean, it would be weird. Yeah. I guess that's the contrast I'm trying to point out is we don't get to play with them and become friends.
Stephanie Entin[2:11] I know there's like a disconnect. So it was a beautiful way to grow up. And you just had to find things to do rather than always having, you know, a lot of things around you. So, yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[2:26] Yeah, it would be nice to have things to draw the kids outside, you know. My kids, anyway, it's so hard to pull them away from the electronics. They just want to be indoors.
Stephanie Entin[2:34] Yeah, I know. And of course, I grew up when before that became a thing, too. So it was kind of a double. Yeah. So I feel like now more than ever, we just need things to draw them outside and be one with nature. I know. My kids often say, Mom, I wish I could grow up like you did.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[2:52] Yeah, I wish I could grow up like you did. Well, yeah, we didn't have the phones either. My kids are still like shocked that we would leave the house and not have a direct line of communication with the parents. I'm like, yeah, that's just how you would find a pay phone. I'm like, you see that thing. Yeah. And when you made a plan, you showed up. You didn't have a phone to text and say, oh, I'm sorry, I can't make it.
Stephanie Entin[3:14] Right. I'm not going to be there. You just you got to go.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:17] OK, what brought you to Los Angeles?
Stephanie Entin[3:19] Well, after I completed my master's program in nutrition and had my first job as a dietitian, I had been doing modeling and acting on the side and in Oklahoma. Yeah, actually, I was doing acting. I actually got my SAG card in Oklahoma or became SAG eligible. I was kind of naive about the whole thing. I really didn't know much about the union and SAG and all of that. So someone encouraged me to move here. They just said, you know, you should just go for it. You should just try it out. You have a good look. I had my degree and I had that finished. So I thought, you know what? Why not? And my dad was living in Montecito. So I called him up and I said, hey, dad,
[4:02] can I come live with you for a little while? He's like, what? Are you crazy? I said, no, no, I'm just going to try this thing out. So I came out here to do acting and I got a commercial agent and started doing commercials straight away. And I didn't realize that I was SAG eligible. And they said, you have to go to SAG and pay your dues before you can show up on set. I said, oh, OK, perfect. Let's do this.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[4:27] And there was no chat GPT to ask. It's funny that you say that. I literally today just right here on my desk have my first ever SAG royalty check.
Stephanie Entin[4:39] No way.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[4:40] Yeah.
Stephanie Entin[4:41] Oh, wow. That's your first one?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[4:44] First one ever.
Stephanie Entin[4:45] What is it from?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[4:46] It's from The Curse. It's a Showtime series that Emma Stone invited me to do a small role in this weird dark comedy. And so I did it. It was a couple of years ago. And then all of a sudden.
Stephanie Entin[4:59] Oh, that's amazing. I'm going to have to rent that tonight.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:01] Oh, yeah. It's streaming on Showtime or it's a series, though. It's like a 10 episode series. Anyway, back to you, my SAG sister. So you were really interested career wise in nutrition. And then on the side, you were doing some acting and modeling.
Stephanie Entin[5:18] Yes.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:19] It looks like the health sciences took the lead.
Stephanie Entin[5:24] Yes. So I went back to work and did some consulting as I was doing acting and modeling. I would leave during the day to go to auditions and go back to my job. So I was doing both for a long time. And then when I had kids, I went back and did it full time. I've done a lot of different things with my nutrition degree. So it's always been there and it's always been a part of me. But I've also had this creative side of me that I love and do.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:55] Oh, the right brain and the left brain. When did yoga and meditation come into the mix?
Stephanie Entin[6:02] That's an amazing question because I was going to say my whole journey to birth and my birth work came because of yoga. I just had an interest in yoga in Oklahoma, but there were no yoga studios anywhere to be found. You could not find a yoga class. So I went to Target and I bought a VHS and I started doing yoga in my living room and just fell in love with it. And so when I moved to Los Angeles, I just started practicing at all different studios. And a few years go by, I decided that I wanted to become a teacher. And I was studying at the Golden Bridge Yoga and they had a women's class. So I was doing the Wednesday women's class and Gurmukh, the teacher, she said to me,
[6:49] or she was telling everybody, there's a prenatal yoga teacher training. And I thought, that's it. I was supposed to do something that day and it fell through. So I was there and I thought, well, that's the reason I'm here because I'm supposed to hear this message and that's the kind of teacher that I want to become. That's so Kundalini.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[7:09] It is, isn't it?
Stephanie Entin[7:11] Yeah, I remember Gurmukh. So Kundalini. It's such a strange word, isn't it? And then you're like, what is Kundalini? I thought it was a pasta.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[7:20] It sounds like.
Stephanie Entin[7:21] Yeah, I'll get the Kundalini with me. I think it should be. I think we should create a Kundalini pasta. What do you think?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[7:28] Yes.
Stephanie Entin[7:29] Yeah, so I decided to become a prenatal yoga teacher and I thought, oh, how beautiful to work with pregnant women. And I had even done a thesis in college about pregnant women. For some reason, I just was drawn to it. I made up a study comparing vegan mothers to non-vegan mothers to see what the difference would be in the baby's birth weight. So that interest in pregnancy and motherhood has always been there. So I started teaching at a mother's haven in Encino. I have no idea if it's still there. And one of my students came up to me and she said, will you be my doula? And I said, I'm not a doula. And she said, please be my doula. You helped calm me down and I really want you to be there at my birth.
[8:16] So that's how I became a doula.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:18] It makes so much sense. You do have a very calming energy.
Stephanie Entin[8:22] Oh, thanks.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:23] I feel like you wouldn't have to do very much. I'm sure you do a ton, but I'm sure you wouldn't even have to do very much. So it's just being around you is calming.
Stephanie Entin[8:32] Oh, thanks. That's a lot about what a doula is, you know, like the presence. Just being there, being a calm presence for people.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[8:41] And especially as someone who teaches meditation also, you have an understanding of the autonomic nervous system and how to take the reins of it and decide whether you want to be in a fight or flight, adrenaline kind of mode of operation, or if you want to shift the balance over to the other side and being more of an oxytocin mode.
Stephanie Entin[9:03] Yeah, you're so right.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:04] You have so many different skills within meditation, within yoga, and then just natural calming presence. I could see why someone would say, I don't care if you have doula experience, I need you.
Stephanie Entin[9:17] Yeah, yeah. So I credit her to this day for helping me be a doula.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:23] And that was all before you had your first?
Stephanie Entin[9:25] Yeah, this was before I had children.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:27] Wow. What about photography? Because that's in the resume as well.
Stephanie Entin[9:31] Yep. Well, I started photography in high school. I was on the yearbook staff. I was the sports editor. I shot with a film camera. We had a dark room in our journalism room. So I learned to shoot and develop my own film, typeset, everything, send it off to the printer. So that's how I became interested in it. And then I had my own camera. I traveled to Europe when I was 13, took film pictures there, and just my love for it just spawned around that time. And I looked at National Geographic magazines growing up and I just love the documentary style of photography. And I've always been drawn to that. And I got my first camera when my first daughter was born.
[10:15] And I had a good friend and a neighbor who was a photographer and he taught me how to use my camera. So I just started shooting then. And then I always thought to myself, oh, I'd love to do this professionally. But then I thought, oh, how would I ever do that? And then my experience in front of the camera as an actor and a model, I had that knowledge too. Sort of like I had a really good idea of, I don't know, just set up and lighting and just a general understanding of directing people. And so I think just with all of that has sort of helped me when I did start my photography.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:51] And then you at some point blended it all together and became a Dulatog, which is a very interesting blend. And all the qualities about you that we talked about before kind of come into play here. Because I've been to birth where you have a birth photographer and it's just so amazing how they're getting everything on camera, but also they're like a fly in the wall. Like you almost don't even notice that they're there. And that's an incredible skill, like a real interesting combination. And I want to talk about all that because I think just that alone is interesting, but that together with the Dulatog, Dulatog who's also the photographer is an even more unique blend.
[11:32] But before we talk about all of that Dulatog stuff, including your award-winning photography, I want to learn more about your experience having babies. Before we can do that, we need to take a quick break. We'll be right back. My guest Stephanie Anton is so many things, a Dulat nutritionist, dietitian, and a yoga teacher, a meditation instructor, a photographer, an actress, a model, and a mommy. So that's where we want to focus our energy now. You had two very interesting births as I gave away in the introduction. I'd love to kind of get a sense of what you had in mind for the first birth and how it went down.
Stephanie Entin[12:27] Well, I had already become a doula. I was a doula for about a year and a half when I became pregnant. And I have to say that before I did my prenatal yoga teacher training, birth was very, very scary to me. My grandmother said, I don't want you to have children. I'm scared. She had a breech birth, by the way, and she gave birth to my mother breech, but she was knocked out in the process. It was very traumatic for her. And then my mother went through a horrible situation where she was by herself, and the nurse slapped her and told her to be quiet and things like that. So all I heard-
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:07] Did she give birth to you?
Stephanie Entin[13:08] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:10] Oh, so that was your warm welcome.
Stephanie Entin[13:13] Yeah. So I had this idea in my head that birth was just this scary, horrible thing. And so when I took my yoga training, they showed us videos and midwives came and talked to us and Dr. Crane was there and talked to us. And my introduction into the birth world began. And I watched these beautiful films and I remember looking at the screen and I said, that's how I want to have a baby. Because I didn't know it was possible.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[13:42] You had only one reality and it wasn't this one.
Stephanie Entin[13:44] Yeah, I had no idea. So then I saw what could be possible. So I thought, okay, well, when I got pregnant, my husband, his father was an OB-GYN. And so this is something that very commonly comes up in some of my clients where one family is medical, the other one's a natural birth and there's conflict. So here I was the doula, granola doula who wanted a natural birth. And so I chose a midwife and I was planning a birthing center birth. And a lot of it is controversial. A lot of it is, I probably don't want to share too much about it, but I will say this. I just think there were two opposing things going on, what I wanted and what they thought was best.
[14:34] And in the end, that won over, and I was very encouraged to be induced. And all of those fear things came up. You're going to have a big baby, you're 35. I was 35 when I was pregnant with her. So just all of those things. You really need to have this baby. So there was a lot of pressure. I continued to see my midwife throughout the process and she gave me a lot of encouragement, but yet I was still so pressured and so pulled by the other side. So I ended up being induced. And not at a birthing center.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[15:13] No, not at a birth. You can't be induced at a birthing center, unfortunately. Yeah, your midwife plan for out of hospital birth
Stephanie Entin[15:21] was not the one that prevailed. It's not the one that prevailed. Yeah, they said there was something in my daughter's heart that had to be monitored, like a narrowing in her aorta, and that I needed to be in a hospital with a NICU and all these things. So my plan changed and it was really hard. The night before I went in, I just cried and I took a bath and I was just grieving the birth that I really, really, really wanted. And it was really hard for me. So I began the process and just did the best I could. I had my doula and I did hypnobirthing. Alicia Tambury was my doula. And then I also had Octavia, too. I had two doulas because the birth was so long.
[16:07] I did everything I could to try to go into labor before. I did the acupressure. I did everything you can imagine under the sun, but it just didn't work. So I think it's just a matter of your body's just not ready when it's being forced to do something that's just not natural. And I think that was the case with my induction. I've been with a lot of clients who have beautiful inductions, actually. And I've been with some that are very, very difficult. So mine ended up being the very, very difficult kind. And very long. Very long. Yeah, it was four days and I ended up only getting to seven centimeters. I labored on Pitocin without an epidural for about 40 something hours.
[16:51] And then I finally had to give in. I tried everything, you know, but the doctor ultimately thought I should have a cesarean. The good thing is because my father-in-law was an OBGYN at Tarzana at the time. He was in there. My husband was in there. My mother was in there. My sister was in there.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[17:09] Oh, you got to bring a lot of people.
Stephanie Entin[17:11] We had a party in the O.R., which is not something that people get to do. So my sister was in there. And my daughter. Eventually.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[17:20] Your daughter was in there.
Stephanie Entin[17:21] Yeah. And my sister documented it. So I did have some birth photography. She was in film school at the time.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[17:28] Oh, that's really nice too. I mean, you don't normally get to have people and don't normally get to have pictures.
Stephanie Entin[17:34] I know. I know. So she documented it and she was born December 22, 2006.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[17:43] No, you didn't want to have any of that. So how did you feel afterwards, mentally, emotionally, physically?
Stephanie Entin[17:52] Emotionally and physically, it was horrible. Just the coming off of all the medication. And I just remember how sick I was and sore I was and I couldn't walk. And luckily, the breastfeeding went really well and I was able to breastfeed for a really long time. But it was a grieving process. Emotionally, it was really hard because I felt like I was forced into something, you know, that I didn't really want. Something so personal, so intimate, so physical. Yeah, it took a lot of processing. Yeah, it took a lot of processing and even to decide to have a second child. And the thing that was most beneficial was I wrote my story. I wrote down my birth story and I was doing this communication leadership training course
[18:38] and I sat in a room with my whole team and I sat in the middle and I shared my birth story with everybody and I just cried. And I cried because what I was creating in that moment was my next birth. I was like, my next birth is going to be how I want it to be and it's going to be beautiful and it's going to be amazing. So I did that as part of the process to really clear the way for the next one.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:06] Sounds very therapeutic. We're just doing an episode of the podcast earlier this week about, you know, the therapeutic value of processing your birth experience, especially if it didn't go according to how you had hoped and even sharing that story with other people, that therapeutic value for you as the one who's sharing it. Okay, well, thankfully you came to the idea that you would have another one and you had a vision on how that would go and it sounds like also more of a grounding in not being so vulnerable to be pushed off of your path that you wanted to be on. So how did that turn out for you?
Stephanie Entin[19:44] It turned out perfect. It was perfect. It was beautiful. It was healing.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:49] Oh my gosh, perfect. I got chills. Yeah, I feel the energy coming for you. Like how therapeutic that was. Okay, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
Stephanie Entin[19:58] No, not at all. It's good. I love sharing it because I do share it a lot with my clients, you know, especially VBAC clients. So yeah, because I had a doctor who helped me with my home birth and it was in San Diego and we lived near the ocean at the time. And I just, in my heart and in my mind, I just knew, I just didn't let anything deter me. Of course, the fears would come up, but that's part of the processing. I worked with Ana Virual. She worked with me on the phone. We did some sessions.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[20:30] You have all the powerhouses.
Stephanie Entin[20:33] That's the lucky thing about being connected in the birth world. Yeah, she stayed at my house and I hosted her. She did a workshop in San Diego.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[20:40] Oh, wow.
Stephanie Entin[20:40] So anyway, I did a lot of work to get to that point. And so I felt so prepared, you know, I was also prepared because I had had a four-day process the first time. I was also prepared for it to be really long, you know, in my mind. So I had a doula who had had a cesareans who had a home birth so that she would understand the process. Linda Goldsmith. She's amazing. She's down in San Diego. Yeah, so I was 40 weeks and five days when I went into labor. I had an acupuncture treatment the day before. And then I woke up at 530 in the morning. My water broke on June 2nd.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:23] Oh, spontaneously by itself.
Stephanie Entin[21:26] Spontaneously by itself. I woke up and I thought I'd pee the bed. So no, that's not pee. So I just kind of like sat there. I called my doctor, called my doula and just kind of sat there and nothing happened. And I had a little bit of coffee and the sun came up. And it started a couple of hours later. And then I started feeling it. And then we filled up the birth tub in my bedroom. And then my daughter was in there swimming around too. My older daughter was very cute. And then my doula showed up. My doctor showed up. And then we all went for a walk on the cliff right by the ocean. And I was laboring on the ocean, hanging on my doula. My daughter was taking pictures.
[22:08] It was so cute with the camera. And my dog was there too. And then I felt that really strong urge to get back to the pool. I could tell it was transition. Whatever transition was supposed to be like, I think that that was the moment. Because intuitively I thought, oh my gosh, I need to get to where I'm going to have this baby. And so I slowly but surely made it back up the hill, up the stairs to the second floor and got in the birth tub. And the whole process was seven and a half hours.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[22:41] Wow. And picture what it felt like for you to have your baby emerge the way you had wanted, the way you had pictured.
Stephanie Entin[22:50] Yeah, I was somewhere else. When you're in that moment and you're doing it that way, you sort of leave your body. You have this experience where you're just not in your body. And I think it's designed that way. I just remember, yeah, she was born into my arms. The doctor was behind me. I was leaning over. I was just listening to him guide me, but I was also within too. And I could hear the music playing. I could hear people's voices. And then I just remember he said, reach through and catch her. And I brought her up to me. And I just remember seeing her little red hair. She had red hair and she just looked at me and she was so quiet. And it was just the most perfect, beautiful moment.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:34] Wow. I know it was a long time ago, but congratulations.
Stephanie Entin[23:38] Thanks.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:39] 15 years ago.
Stephanie Entin[23:41] I know.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:42] I can't believe it. The way you tell it, it sounds like it happened last week and I'm just really happy for you.
Stephanie Entin[23:48] Oh, thanks.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:49] I imagine your own experiences sort of influenced your work, your continued work as a do-land, as a birth photographer. I want to take one more break and we come back, really focus on your experience in the birthing room, attending birth for other people. We'll be right back. Okay. We are back with Stephanie Enton. Stephanie, I think you were sharing your two birth stories. I know each one could probably be a double episode if we got into any more of the detail. They're both interesting and intricate stories, but you really summed them up beautifully. And somehow, even with just the bullet points, I felt the energy and feel the inspiration and the contrast between them
[24:43] and the determination that you had.
Stephanie Entin[24:46] Thank you. Thank you.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[24:48] It's inspiring. So as we went into break, I wonder how that further enhanced your work as a doula and as a photographer. I want to also say congratulations to you for being awarded the best birth image by the International Association of Professional Birth Photographers. It's a nice accolade. But yeah, those two jobs, on one hand, it's one person in the room doing two different things, but you know, like two birds, I guess. But on the other hand, they're very different jobs, sometimes competing with each other. Like how do you give support in a key moment when you're also don't want to miss a shot that is important to your client. So tell me everything.
Stephanie Entin[25:29] Tell you everything. You want to know how I started. Do you want to know how I do it?
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[25:34] Yeah, I want to know like the unique intricacies of being a doula, well, of being a birth photographer. Like how do you get those incredible shots and at the same time not have somebody feel observed?
Stephanie Entin[25:48] Yeah, I think first of all, you know, someone seeking a birth photographer, it's something that they want. It's something that they feel is valuable and something to invest in. So most of my clients, you know, they're ready for it. They're down for it. They're comfortable with it. And we meet beforehand and get to know each other and I explain the process and that it's very documentary. It's never posed. I never asked them to pose or anything like that. So a lot of times, I mean, I am a fly on the wall. I try to be, some people hire me just as a birth photographer. Some people hire me just as a doula. But most of the time, most people hire me to do both
[26:30] because I can do both. So obviously you said, you know, it's different roles. When I'm just the birth photographer, I say just. But when I'm only the birth photographer, it is a different role. I don't have to be so involved and I don't quite have to be there as early either. And in the setting, too, makes it different as well. Documenting in a hospital birth versus documenting at home, you're dealing with rules and staff and lighting. The lighting in hospitals can be very challenging and can be very yucky sometimes. Not so dreamy. Not so dreamy. If you get a room with a natural window with a natural light coming in and it's like the perfect time of day
[27:15] when they're having the baby, primo. But those awful hospital lights, you know, you have to contend with that. So it's, I say to a lot of people, I say birth photography is some of the best photography training you can ever get because you just jump in. You only have one take, you know, for a lot of it. So how I do both at the same time is, you know, I always make my doula is priority, being the support, being the advocate. Really, it's an organic process that unfolds because every birth is so unique and different. So with the storytelling aspect, everybody's birth is so different. The way I document it, whatever is in the photos and the couple, their dynamic,
[27:59] the family dynamic, what time of day it is, what time of year it is, you know, there's just so many things that come into play. And so I really try to just go in. I do have set photos in mind that I want to capture, you know, in a birth, the ones that people really like, you know, but you can't really go in with an exact, you know, it's like, oh, I would love to have the perfect shot of the baby coming out every single time. But sometimes they come out, you know, looking this way. Sometimes they come out looking this way. And then if you're in a hospital, they'll tell you, oh, you have to stand on that side of the bed when really I wanted to stand on that side of the bed.
[28:40] And so there's so many factors that come into play and I really have to just be on my toes, ready to just deal with so many different situations and personalities. It can be quite high pressure, you know, especially in the birth moment. I'm thinking as it's unfolding, okay, whatever position the mother is in, you know, is she on her hands and knees? And then I'm trying to position myself around the staff and, you know, everything. So to answer your question about being a doula, yes, a lot of the times I am physically needed through the process. I do massaging and back rubbing and holding, but a lot of times the partner is doing that as well. And so those are opportunities I can step back,
[29:25] take some photos. I'm not constantly taking photos all the time.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[29:29] So what happens in very low light? Do you end up using a flash because it seems that that could also be a little-
Stephanie Entin[29:36] Well, for me personally, my photography style, I don't love flash. I don't really use flash a lot. There are some photographers, that's their thing. But I only pull that out when I absolutely have to. So what I do, if it's in a home birth, what I'll do is if it's super dark, I'll bring in a lamp from another room or, you know, I'll try to position a light in a way that I can get some source of light because you have to have some source. And then I have a really good camera, you know, that you can bump up the ISO and lower the aperture and adjust your camera in a way that lets more light in. So you have to have a really good camera for low light situations.
[30:16] And then there's a lot of things you can do in the editing too. So you just learn that over time. A lot of times I shoot underexposed and then I can fix it in post. But you kind of have to know how to shoot it to begin with.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[30:28] Yeah. It's like you're saying, far from a studio where you can control all the different components. It's almost the exact opposite.
Stephanie Entin[30:36] Yeah. Yeah. So I like to try to bring some source of light. Sometimes I'll mess with the blinds to bring in the natural light. And sometimes the OBs are amazing. They'll say to me, like, how do you want the light? Do you want the spotlight? Sometimes I have some of them are just so great to me about the lighting. So when I'm a doula too, and I'm taking pictures at the same time, a lot of it is verbal. I will also just take moments where I'm holding someone's leg as I have my camera strapped across my shoulder. It kind of just really depends on what's needed because a lot of times the midwives are there supporting, the partners supporting, the nurses are supporting.
[31:18] And so they know that I'm there to take the photos too and that's important. So they realize that I can't be this physical support at the same time. So really, honestly, there's a lot of other support that allows me to jump in and take photos, but I'm still there talking with the mother, looking out for everything, to make sure that everything is followed in their birth plan. It's really a juggle. It is, it is. Sometimes I have to take a deep breath before I go into these situations. It's a lot, especially the really long ones. Last week I was doing doula and video and photo and I was there for 26 hours straight.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[32:01] Wow. I wonder, being in the birth room you see a lot and I'm sure sometimes it's magical and sometimes it's really stressful and disheartening. Your two very different experiences in birth, personal experiences in birth, do they affect your work in terms of guiding other people or supporting other people while they're having their babies?
Stephanie Entin[32:27] Absolutely, absolutely. I feel like it's a very positive thing. My challenging first birth and everything I went through that definitely allows me to have a lot of empathy and understanding for people who do find themselves in a situation where they have to be induced or the opposite where they're being told that they should be induced and then I can then really counsel them and help advocate for them not to be if it's not really necessary. So that I've physically gone through both experiences myself, I definitely feel like I bring that to my clients and I feel like over the years I've definitely become more outspoken and more confident as a doula
[33:12] to really speak up and be an advocate and really sound the alarm when I feel like something doesn't sound right and give them all the proper questions to ask and really dig deep with their providers when they see them to make sure they're making the right decisions.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[33:30] Yeah, given all your experience personal and working with other people, do you have, is there like a piece of advice that you would give general or specific to someone in terms of both birth planning, just advice for them to keep in mind as they get close to and think about and kind of execute the kind of birth they want to have and then also separately for birth photography, anything specific to think about when hiring a birth photographer?
Stephanie Entin[34:02] Well, I think it's important to talk to your partner about what each of you wants as far as the birth plan. One person may feel completely opposite from the other and so I feel like the birthing mom and the partner to be on the same page and to feel like you both want the same thing is really important. The second thing is having a provider and the place that's really on board with the kind of birth that you want to have because I feel like if you have a doctor who's completely against the kind of birth that you want, there's just no, you know. Well, it's a very uphill battle. There's only so much a doula can do, you know. I think having a doula there
[34:49] makes all the difference in the world. But there's only so much if you are going against, you know, the grain.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:56] I think those are two very, very solid pieces of advice to, you know, look at the choices you'll be making together with your partner and find ways that you can both be on the same page and also to pick a provider who's on that page too is really good advice. It just makes things a lot more comfortable and even if you do, like, you can't control birth entirely. So what do you do for some reason need to be induced or have other interventions, including cesarean? If you truly feel supported by your partner and your provider, then it's going to have a different impact.
Stephanie Entin[35:31] Oh, it makes all the difference in the world. I know, I experienced both sides the first time and the second time. Yeah, the second time I just felt so loved. I felt so, like, no question. The first time I met my doctor, I said, I want to have a VBAC and he said, you're going to rock a VBAC. Let's do this.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[35:52] And then what about on the photography side?
Stephanie Entin[35:54] Photography side? I would just say, you know, I think when people are seeking it out, they look at photographers' portfolios, you know, and then I think people are drawn to a certain style of photography, I think. I think it's really important just as picking a doula that you feel comfortable with the birth photographer because, you know, they're part of the birth team and they're going to be there in this intimate moment with you and you want it to be someone that you trust. And, you know, I just think if you like their work and their style, you know, that's an important element.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[36:27] So it's just like a dual element here to look at the portfolio and see if those kind of images are the kind you're looking for that resonate with you, but then also that the chemistry of the actual photographer works well because, like you said, it's having somebody in the room who is not a good energy for you can be quite detrimental to the whole experience.
Stephanie Entin[36:48] Yeah, I mean, that's the benefit. You know, I'm a professional birth photographer and I think there are some people out there nowadays that say, you know, well, I know there are doulas that take photos for some people and that's great, but if someone really wants the full thing documented and they want really good images, you know, professionally taken, you definitely need to pick someone who's a professional birth photographer. And there's not that many doula togs, really. It's a very specialized thing. And when I choose people to back me up, you know, there's like a list of people that I go to. A small list of doula togs. Yeah, and I want someone who's experienced like me
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[37:29] and, you know, so. What was the award-winning photo?
Stephanie Entin[37:33] It is a photo from a birth that I documented in December last year. And I was also the doula and I also did video. It was a home birth and she ended up birthing the baby in the water and it was daylight. It was in the morning. So I had this beautiful natural light coming in the window and sometimes just everything comes together. And it was just this moment where she was sitting in the tub and her husband was sitting behind her and he had his arms around her and she had her arms around the baby and she was looking down at the baby half in the water, half out, and you could see the cord. And I wasn't shooting it thinking, oh my gosh, I have to enter this.
[38:19] That image just ended up just the colors and everything just ended up, you know, being really, really nice. Now, the fact that it won, I was completely shocked because it's a very difficult competition and there are some really beautiful images that get entered into this competition. And I've been entering it since 2014. That's the year I started birth photography. And, you know, I've never placed that high. I've had a couple of honorable mentions, but I was literally shocked and they did the award ceremony in LA this year and I actually got to go. And when they told me that I won, I was just, wow, you know, to be picked like that. It was a really special honor.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[39:02] Wow, congratulations again.
Stephanie Entin[39:04] Thank you.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[39:05] Stephanie, I really appreciate that you joined me on this podcast
Stephanie Entin[39:11] Thanks Elliot.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[39:12] You're a really unique mix of talents and then also just raw, pure, wonderful energy. And I appreciate you sharing your stories and your work with me and with our audience. Tell us, where can we find you and see your work online?
Stephanie Entin[39:30] Well, I appreciate you too. You can find me on Instagram at little plum photo. That's little and then plum like the fruit. And then my website is little plum photo.com.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[39:45] Okay. What's little plum?
Stephanie Entin[39:47] That's my name. I came up with when I started.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[39:50] What does it represent? Where did it come from?
Stephanie Entin[39:52] I decided to use a name instead of my name when I started my business. In the Asian culture, the plum is a fortuitous fruit. And I don't know the word little, you know, I'm photographing little babies, little feet. Plum is sort of like, you know, a fruit. It gets ripe, you know, pregnancy get ripe.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[40:13] I see the imagery. I see the imagery and the fortuitousness just adds to it. So little plum photo.com.
Stephanie Entin[40:21] Yes.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[40:22] Yeah. Amazing. Thank you again. I'm going to go check out some of those pictures and I want to see that award-winning photo. Is it up there?
Stephanie Entin[40:30] It is on my homepage. It's also on my Instagram as well. But also I just wanted to mention too, I just wanted you to know that event that you had at your house in 2014. Networking? When I decided to start my company, I said, I need to get out there and network. I had heard about you, but I hadn't met you yet. And you were having this event and I said, I have to go. And pretty much a lot of people, so many people were there. It was at your house that I met Dr. Fishbein. And then I ended up photographing my first birth at one of his home births.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[41:02] Oh, wow. I did not realize that.
Stephanie Entin[41:04] And it was because of you. So I just wanted you to know that.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[41:07] Well, I'm glad we did it. It was the hobnob for childbirth professionals. We did a whole bunch of them, just to bring the community together. And finding out actually years later now, a lot of interesting things that started at those hobnobs. So I didn't know that. And I'm glad we did it.
Stephanie Entin[41:24] Yeah, thank you. I'm glad you did it too.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[41:27] So thanks again for sharing with us. And at home, thanks for listening to the Informed Pregnancy Podcast. For more pregnancy and parenting information, just like this, visit us online at informedpregnancy.com.
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Former science teacher turned genetic counselor Natalie Richeimer joins the podcast to discuss her journey through IVF and a VBAC after a traumatic first birth. She set her sights on a more informed, empowered birth for her second child, seeking autonomy and healing as a Covid lockdown birth was imminent.
Connect with the guest:
@lotsofbracha
Informed Pregnancy Media and Mahmee present an all new podcast! One Way or a Mother is a new narrative podcast from Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC. Each season is an intimate story of one woman, one pregnancy, and all of the preparations, emotions, and personal history leading up to the birth. Episodes feature the expectant mother along with her family, doctors, and birth work team.
AI-generated transcript with speaker labels — may contain errors, especially names and medical terms. Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC appears in blue; Natalie Richeimer in orange.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[0:00] My guest today is a former high school science teacher, turned genetic counselor, a three-time IVF warrior, and a passionate advocate for informed, empowered birth, especially when it comes to vaginal birth after cesarean, or VBAC. After a traumatic first birth that ended in an emergency cesarean and a NICU stay, she set her sights on something radically different the second time around, a birth defined by autonomy, trust, and healing. But what does that even look like? How do you plan for it? And was she able to pull it off? Especially as the world went into lockdown for the COVID-19 pandemic. I'm pregnancy-focused chiropractor, Dr. Elliott Berlin, and you're listening to the Informed Pregnancy Podcast.
[0:46] Natalie Richheimer, welcome to the podcast.
Natalie Richeimer[1:02] Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Berlin.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:05] My pleasure. I'm excited to hear your story. It's quite a journey. Let's start at the beginning. Where are you from originally, and how did you get into the line of work that you do?
Natalie Richeimer[1:15] So, I am originally from Toronto, Canada, and when people ask me why I moved to L.A., I married an L.A. boy, and L.A. boys, they can't survive anywhere outside of Los Angeles.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[1:31] That is true.
Natalie Richeimer[1:33] We moved out here, and it's a very long story on how I became a genetic counselor, but I'm very passionate about education. I thought for my whole life I would have been an M.D., a doctor, and then part of my grand plan of getting into medical school was to do teaching for a few years, very passionate about education. Salad to teaching, women in STEM loved it, but it always kind of felt like there was a journey that was missing for me, medicine-wise, and really just couldn't really figure out what that was, and an M.D. just didn't feel like the right thing for me. And we can talk a little bit more about it later, but essentially when I went through I.D.S.,
[2:16] I found out very young that I had infertility and that I would be able only to have children through I.D.S. I had a lot of genetic counselors really along the way, and it kind of clicked like an a-ha click for me, and that like, oh, this is what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to be a medicine, I'm supposed to be a genetic counselor, and it was really only when I got pregnant with my second child that I had felt like, okay, I'm going to be a mom of two if I don't go back to grad school at this point. I'm six years into teaching at this point, never going to do it, so I applied to a graduate school. I did my interview, nine months pregnant, I would say I was probably the most memorable person
[2:53] at the interview, and have really loved it ever since, and it really came from a passion for advocacy and for medicine.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:02] So when you said you met genetic counselors during your fertility journey, meaning you met them professionally, like they were counseling?
Natalie Richeimer[3:09] As a patient, yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:11] And it had a big impact on you?
Natalie Richeimer[3:12] Yeah.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[3:13] All right, let's talk about that first birth. So you overcame your fertility hurdles, got pregnant. How was the pregnancy and what was your plan for birth?
Natalie Richeimer[3:21] So, you know, looking back, I've been doing a lot of like looking back, retrospective, I was at the time, you know, I thought I was super old having my first baby at 25. I was like joking with my OB at the time. I'm like, I'm an old mom, very young, very, very young. A lot of people in my circle of friends and family have had kids really young, so 25, but like so old to me was not. But, you know, looking back, a lot of my confidence in myself as a person was taken away from me through IVF and through fertility. And it's a big theme that I thought about. You know, I couldn't get pregnant on my own. And the only way I was going to get pregnant was with serious amounts
[4:02] of intervention, and I needed to blindly trust the doctors and do whatever they said to get and stay pregnant. And so that was kind of the mentality or mindset that I went in with that birth pregnancy. And I would, you know, being Canadian, we are great people, but we don't necessarily all question medical authority. And so whatever the doctor said to me was fine. You know, I had heard on the grapevine of all your friends and mother's friends and mother-in-law's friends who have had babies that I didn't want to have a C-section, like I knew that. I didn't really understand why, you know, but everyone was like, don't have a C-section. But no one tells you like how to have a successful vaginal birth.
[4:40] So I just figured like it'll happen for me. I hired a doula because that's apparently what you do. You hire yourself a doula. You want to have a vaginal birth. And interestingly enough, my own mother had five kids and one of five. All of her babies were induced and all of them, she didn't do pain medication. She had her babies 80s and 90s. It was very out of vogue. So I knew that I shouldn't do pain.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[5:02] Yeah, exactly.
Natalie Richeimer[5:03] I knew I shouldn't do pain medication. That's what I knew. I was like, no pain meds, vaginal birth. Cool. Hire a doula. I had no idea what that meant. And the doula at the time did not prepare me. So, you know, I go into this birth pregnancy with a lot of trepidation. I had had a very early loss prior to this pregnancy. So there, you know, with IVF, especially if you've had loss before, you don't really breathe until you have a baby in your arms. You're always waiting for the other shoe to drop. And that was that pregnancy for me. And there were things that have popped up in the pregnancy. I had polyhedromyose, which means a lot of extra fluid.
[5:39] For those who don't know, you know, a little high risk. And there were other things that they were watching for that had made me, I would say, like, low, high risk. So I was being extra careful monitored. And when I had gotten to 39 weeks, they were very, very clear that I was not allowed to go further than that. They had felt the MFM and the OB that we were really, you know, playing with fire and that I should be induced to 39 weeks. No idea what that meant. I knew my mom was induced and had successful first. So I was like, oh, that's what the doctor told me to do. And I have this doula and it's going to go great. And it was induced from zero, which meant I went in and I did cervical
[6:17] and I went in and I did a Foley balloon. And no one tells you that a Foley balloon is like literally for me, at least one of the most painful things in the world. So I had made it about four centimeters, so much pain. I was like, you know what? Okay, fine. Let's do this walking epidural. Did the walking epidural, had felt great, even felt like, okay, like let's dial it down. It's even a little heavy for me. And really to the credit of my OB, like I had a very slow, but progressing labor and baby was descending and things were going slowly, but they were going really well. And I had gotten to the place where I was pushing in my labor. I was at 10 centimeters.
[6:55] I was pushing and baby was showing some D cells. So the heart rate was decreasing. And was really showing that he wasn't tolerating labor so well, but it was fine. I was pushing. And then at a certain point in labor, again, things happen very, very quickly. And he was very far down. Like he, from what I was told, again, like it's hard to know everything after a fact, he flatlines, meaning his heart completely gave out. Yeah, it was like my husband, still I'm pushing. I have the whole like called code. So I had like a thousand people around me. I'm pushing. I don't know what's happening. This is something I remember. And it will stick with me for the rest of my life.
[7:37] My husband is the most calm, positive person. I am like a very anxious and not always positive person for myself. And I just remember him looking at me, like with the saddest look of like, this is really not good. So I was like in the movies, seen wheeled away to the OR, like there was no conversation. It was like, we need to do the C-section now. My OB who is a really soft spoken woman. I just remember her yelling like anesthesia needs to be here. Now we need to switch the bag now or we're putting under. They got in, like it was running and chaos. And it was so fast. My husband wasn't able to scrub in. So I was by myself like too graphic and gory,
[8:19] but like I was throwing up on myself. I had no idea what was happening. My OB told me later, she cut out the baby in 60 seconds flat and this whole time, which seemed like hours, but really it was like minutes. I just like, I didn't know if my baby was alive. I didn't know what was going to happen. I had no idea. I just knew I was feeling in a lot of pain and throwing up on myself. And then I heard my son crying, which was the most relieving sound in the world. And then my husband was finally allowed in, he scrubbed in, he went with the baby. And also they went to NICU together and I went to the PACU. By myself again, I remember there were like the nurse and the anesthesiologist were
[9:01] sitting like charting. And I thought I was literally dying. And I remember hearing them say like, she's in so much pain, her heart rate's really slowing down. We can't give her any more, but her blood pressure is really high. Like she might stroke out.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:15] Remember they're talking like about you while you were there.
Natalie Richeimer[9:18] Right there. While you're right there. I remember like, I like my husband on the phone and I was like, babe, I'm dying. He's like, you're not dying. You're fine. I'll see you in a minute. Cause you know, you gotta be the positive person. It was just like a horrible, horrible thing. And again, like just for context, for people who are listening, the baby was so far down. I just remember hearing like, he's really far down and you need to push him back up. Yeah, it was bad. And I ended up getting vaginal stitches and C-section stitches. So I said, stitches in two places.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:48] Oh my goodness. You got the, I don't know, Mother's Day special.
Natalie Richeimer[9:52] Well, you know, gotta keep it real. But that was the story of my first birth and the healing.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[9:59] And then the baby went to NICU?
Natalie Richeimer[10:01] The baby went to NICU, what was always supposed to be two hours, which turned out to be eight days. And we joked as a family, like when they let him go, we literally ran to the parking lot because we're like, they're going to find a reason to keep him. Run, run.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[10:16] Two questions before we take a break. And then I want to find out after the break more about what your postpartum was like. Did they figure out why the baby was flatlining? And also why did the baby need to stay in the NICU for so long?
Natalie Richeimer[10:29] That's a good question. So the baby was flatlining because he wasn't tolerating labor. That's what I was told at the time. You know, like we look back and everything is 2020, but like, you know, being induced from zero, it can be stressful on anybody. And he's a person and you know, I have my thoughts and feelings, but that's what I was told. And he was totally fine. The baby was sent to NICU initially. If anyone's ever had an emergency C-section, you know, the NICU team is sent there and they do preliminary tests. And one of them was to look for acid in the blood, which can be a sign of a metabolic disorder. And she scored slightly high, like it was slightly high,
[11:07] and they wanted to observe him for an hour. That was what we were told. And like, when my husband was admitted, the nurse was like, you're going to be with your wife really soon. Like, this is just very standard, very routine. If anyone has been a NICU parent or has had a child in the NICU, once you're in the NICU, you're hooked up to all sorts of monitors and machines. And what had happened was like this, he was hooked up to what's called a heart thermometer or a heart monitor. And the rule in NICU is every time there's an incident, so meaning your heart skipped a beat or it goes a little fast, which is normal for any of us. If you put any of us on a heart monitor,
[11:45] we would skip a beat. The clock sets back 24 hours.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[11:49] Oh my gosh. How do you work it out?
Natalie Richeimer[11:51] You have to have a lucky 24 hours. So that is the short and long story. They had some concerns about his heart, which ended up he was totally fine, and everything was great, but they had really scared us with him there. And so, you know, we got to enjoy the NICU, which again is both the most facial and horrible place.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:15] Let's take a little break. When we come back, we'll find out what postpartum was like for you in your mind, body, and spirit.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[12:22] Welcome back. We're talking to Natalie Richheimer. So, you know, you had a vision for the birth. You had a doula, and it didn't go according to plan. Baby was not tolerating labor, the induced labor well at all, and then it turned into what sounds like a true emergency cesarean, and then just over a week in the NICU. That means I assume that you went home without your baby, and I think that postpartum is a challenging transition for most people, even when birth goes great, even when it's not a surgical recovery, even when you get to take the baby with you. What was those early days of postpartum like for you?
Natalie Richeimer[13:13] I mean, just like, honestly horrible. Like, leaving a hospital without a baby is probably one of the most horrible things that somebody can go through. And, you know, not knowing if your baby's going to be okay is very scary. And then to come home, and you've had your first baby, and to just be going back and forth to a hospital to visit said baby while you're supposed to be recovering was horrible. I will say for me, you know, and we'll talk about this in the post of this journey, I don't like paid medication. I don't like the way I feel on it. I don't like getting my teeth, you know, numbed at the dentist. And I was on some very heavy painkillers,
[13:55] and I just say this to my husband now. I don't remember the first eight weeks after I had the baby. But I know they happened. I have pictures, and I have very big memories, but I don't remember my son. I just remember being in incredible amounts of pain. And then on top of that,
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:13] Surgical pain or?
Natalie Richeimer[14:15] Surgical pain. And then also the pain comes with like breastfeeding for the first time without your baby there and having to navigate a pump and medications. And yeah, and I was in like vaginal pain as well because I had had stitches there.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[14:29] You had stitches there too. And with all that, it's sort of like, normally the recommendations go rest, but you're running back and forth between home and hospital. I can't really even imagine how intense that must have been. And apparently you blocked a lot of it out.
Natalie Richeimer[14:46] I mean, I distinctly remember telling one of the doctors, because again, I was highly medicated at the time. Like, I know what you're saying. I know they're saying words, but I don't understand the word. Like, they're not going into like, can you, my husband, can you explain what she's, I don't understand what she's saying. So yeah, I mean, I don't know if I blocked it out. I don't know if the pain medication just altered my reality so much that I couldn't like process, but it was really horrible.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[15:12] Down the road, you decided to have another baby. Is that a new IVF or you plug one from the freezer?
Natalie Richeimer[15:20] And from the same batch as my first batch, which was very lucky of us, and decided, you know, after the trauma of my first birth, I really was very clear with my husband that he's very big believer in siblings. He's like, our son's going to be a weirdo if he doesn't have a sibling. We need to have a sibling. I'm like, I don't know. And I said to him, listen, I want to have another baby, but my deal with you is like this. If this is another C-section, I will never have more children. Like, this will be my last, and I want you to understand and respect that. He's like, I totally respect that.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[15:52] Can I just get into your mind for a second? I mean, your C-section was overly traumatic compared to, let's say, an average C-section, right? So was the surgery itself, or was it the very traumatic nature of your particular situation? What about it was one more C-section and I'm done?
Natalie Richeimer[16:11] I mean, it was very horrible, to be honest. It was a 38-hour labor that ended in a C-section, which was physically exhausting. I had stitches in two places. The recovery was not great. And the trauma of stealing, and I hope this is not too graphic. You can cut it out if it is, but feeling someone slice open your abdomen and not being prepared for that and never feeling like that in the world, you know, it was horrible.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[16:36] Again, I only wonder about this. Not my expertise at all. If any of that was extra traumatic because of the time crunch, right? Baby's flatlining. She had the baby out in 60 seconds. No time to like feel around, make sure you're totally numb, you know.
Natalie Richeimer[16:50] For sure. And that's definitely it. And like, that was always explained to me. Like, you just had a really bad C-section. Like, you know, not all C-sections are like that. And I've heard that. But again, my experience around that was so horrible. My experience also in the hospital, like I didn't talk about that much, but I had felt like both the nurses were like nasty with that particular birth, like during that induction. And induction's a hard process, and they were nasty. The staff was nasty. It was just all around horrible and really like just the thought of it. Like, I was like, if it has to happen, it has to happen. I accept that, but I don't ever want to do that again.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[17:25] Interesting. Okay, so I'm not questioning like why. I'm just curious about what the thought process was. And I'm not judging it. I'm just asking why. And also you sometimes see people have that type of first experience, and they run the other way. They're like, I want to have another baby, but I'm not trying vaginal birth again. I'm just going to go for the much more controlled, you know, elective, scheduled cesarean. So you went the other way. But I mean, how do you prevent this from happening again? What was the plan on round two?
Natalie Richeimer[17:55] So, you know, I had a great conversation with my provider about VVAC. She herself has had VVAC, so she was very supportive. And really what she had said from the beginning was, you know, this was a clear situation where it wasn't a you issue, it was a baby issue, right? Like you had a C-section because we were saving your son's life, not because there's something anatomically, you know, blocking you from having a vaginal birth. Controversial, I know, but that was what she had said. You're an excellent candidate for a VVAC. You progressed. You got to 10 plus three, pushing, all that.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[18:27] That is true. That's something to keep in mind. You were very close to just pushing your baby out. So that's one piece. So it sounds like you're saying your doctor was saying this is not expected to be a recurring event.
Natalie Richeimer[18:37] You know, barring lightning striking twice, you are a really good candidate for VVAC. You can also elect for a cesarean. Again, like the pain medication, the recovery was horrible. Like I didn't want that. And it's interesting. I had one of my best friends growing up. She has an older sister who lives in New Jersey. And she has, I believe, seven or eight kids. And her first three births were a C-section. And she was able to VVAC with the last five, four or five.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[19:07] Next level.
Natalie Richeimer[19:09] And she became a VVAC doula, specifically specialized in VVACs. And I had called her on the phone when I had gotten pregnant with my second child. And her name is Penina. Shout out to Penina, if you're listening. And I said, Penina, like, I can't do a C-section again. And it was the first person who validated to me. And she was like, Natalie, I understand exactly what you feel like. I told my husband after the third cesarean, I'm not having any more kids unless I can do it vaginally. Cause I was so horrible. And she really gave me the education and the empowerment to get to a place where I understood what I needed to do to have a VVAC. And I don't think that was ever like,
[19:49] when we talk about my first birth reflecting, I was like, oh, I really want a vaginal birth. Like, okay, but how do you do that? What is that going to look like? Are you going to prepare yourself? She had given me a lot of tools. She wasn't in LA. I mean, the first thing was just being very honest with me about what VVAC looks like in this country. And that everyone is a VVAC doctor in theory, but let's see if your doctor is really a VVAC doctor. Like you need to make sure and scope out if she's legitimately going to give you a decent chance. By asking people who have birth with them or by asking specific questions. Asking specific questions for her related to induction
[20:26] and related to, you know, just other things as well, like pain management and et cetera. And the other thing she was very frank with me about, and I think it was very helpful, was saying like, listen, girl, the cars are stacked against you when you want a VVAC, because there is this underlying fear, whether it's, you know, justified or not is a different conversation of uterine rupture. And the hospital is scared of liability and we are going up against that. And you need to come at this with no pain medication. That is going to be your best shot. If that was a big thing, she said, and you need to go into labor naturally. That's the second best.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:06] I mean, you were planning to do unmedicated
Natalie Richeimer[21:07] the first time anyway. I was planning and it's interesting. Like, how did I feel about that? I wasn't happy at the beginning because I was like, what do you mean? Like, I'm going to be honest with you. She was like, anything you take intervention-wide stacks cars against you. So you can have a VVAC with pain medication. It just makes it less likely. You can have a VVAC with an induction. It just makes it less likely. If you want your best shot, you need to go into labor naturally and you need to do it without pain meds. And I think I was nervous, but I was also like very empowered hearing that she had done it. And also just like, she was like,
[21:45] like, you can do that. Your body can handle this.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[21:48] Was your doctor on board with that plan?
Natalie Richeimer[21:50] Complicated question. Anyone who's had a VVAC knows that there's a good, she's an amazing person, but there's a good deal of negotiating you have to do with VVACs. So she's very on board with no pain medication. What she had wanted me to do precautionary was to put a port in my back for epidural that people know if they put that port in, they've got to test it and test to see if it's working, which means you're going to get some pain meds. So she was not a fan of the plan of no ports and she was not a fan of the plan of waiting longer than necessary, waiting after 39 weeks. I think she would have wanted an induction and that did come to be. And with that particular pregnancy,
[22:32] we had a lot of negotiating and I felt like I was calling my VVAC doula in New Jersey and she was like coaching me, like, here's what you say, okay? Here's what you say. Kick the can down the road. She's not serious. And then like her being like, you know, this is what I think. So I felt like I was caught in between a custody battle.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[22:48] So quasi on board with your plan for VVAC,
Natalie Richeimer[22:52] how did it unfold? It unfolded like this. I was so, so excited about a VVAC and then I got hit at about 12 weeks. From the beginning of the pregnancy, I was having little bleeds and at about 12, 13 weeks in that first trimester scan, I had a complete placenta previa. It was completely complete or partial, but it was placenta previa. And it was like automatically conversation shut down. Like you can't have a VVAC. You are not going to have one. You're going to have a C-section. Like except that it's going to be 37 weeks. And I was really upset, but I was like, okay, it's fine. This will be my last baby. It's going to be a plant. And my husband was like,
[23:31] it's going to be so much better. It's going to be planned. And then the baby did something interesting. My second child. So he's an interesting guy. The placenta moved at about 20 weeks, totally in a great spot. So now we were like, yay, we're eligible. But then we had other problems. So the placenta started to peel in little abrasion.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[23:53] How far into the pregnancy?
Natalie Richeimer[23:55] So I was having bleeds throughout, but the bigger bleeds started, I would say like 20 something and above weeks. So yeah, it was really scary. I remember the first time it happened, distinctly remember I was in the kitchen cooking soup and I was like, I just pee my pants. And then I go to the bathroom and I'm like soaked in blood, run to the ER. And you know, that became the first of quite a few hospitalizations for many placental abruption. So again, it was like, you're not going to have a V-back. There's going to be a complete abruption. That's what's going to happen. And we're going to C-section you.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[24:31] I should probably throw in, we used a few terms, uterine rupture. They mentioned earlier. So the idea here is that after a cesarean birth, your uterus has a scar on it. And aside from everything else, it gets cut open. The uterus gets cut open, baby comes out and then the uterus is repaired. But that repair spot is not exactly how it was. And there's tissue that's different than it was where the scar is. And the concern is that during the throes of labor, while pressure builds up inside the uterus during contractions, maybe that scar will separate, either thinly separate or literally pop or uterine rupture, which could be a significant medical complication.
[25:09] Then you said placenta previa, which is where the placenta for your second pregnancy was sitting down at the bottom of your uterus over your cervix. And pretty much everyone agrees that if the placenta stays there covering your cervix, then it's probably a better idea to have a cesarean birth than to try to birth through the placenta rupture or the placenta while the baby is still inside you. And then now placental abruption is where some or all of the placenta pulls off the wall of the uterus where it's nestled in doing its job interfacing between you and the baby. And so you had a partial, it sounds like, placental abruption that caused some bleeding,
[25:50] which is how you knew about it. And then you had several more during your third trimester.
Natalie Richeimer[25:55] Yeah. And the bleeds progressively got worse. So like the idea was, we live in California, right? We were waiting for the big one. And they had said to me, so they said to me, the resident had said to me, he's like, they're getting worse. What's going to happen is one is going to get really, really bad. Like the placenta will completely detach and you'll have 10 minutes to get here before you and the baby both bleed out, which is scary with LA traffic. I can joke now, but it wasn't so simple at the time. And you know what? God is good. And he was wrong. And I got to about 35 weeks and then this crazy thing happened called COVID. And the world shut down.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[26:36] I remember that.
Natalie Richeimer[26:38] The world shut down and things have really stabilized. And I got the green light from my MSM and my OB to try for a VBAC at like 35 weeks, which was crazy.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[26:51] Did COVID make it crazier somehow?
Natalie Richeimer[26:54] Did COVID make it crazier? I mean, yes and no. Yes, in the sense that I was terrified to go to the hospital. I had never been a gal for a home birth, but I was like, you know what? I want a home birth. And my MFM was like, no way in hell. He was like, you're going to the hospital. I was like, but no. So that was the kind of the stress and the craziness that we had. It also made it interesting. And it was a real blessing in disguise that could only have one person with me in the room. Like it could be my husband or like a birthing support person, like a doula, but I had to choose. You know, everyone told me at least, if you want to have a vaginal birth,
[27:33] you have to have a doula. Can't do it without that. And I was like, yeah, this is between my husband and a doula, especially with what happened last time. I choose my husband every time. So I was like, you're my birthing support person or watching YouTube videos. Well, my VBAC doula was in New Jersey and that was a whole other thing. I couldn't fly her out. I said I would fly you all expenses paid, a nice hotel, you know, and she couldn't fly at that point. So like I said, I wasn't hiring someone here and I would only have had him anyways, like if it came between my husband or anyone else, always my husband.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[28:05] Okay, one more question before we take a break. You said both the OB and the maternal fetal medical specialist signed off on the VBAC. Were there parameters around that sign off? Like it has to be by X amount of time or things like that?
Natalie Richeimer[28:19] Yes. So the MSM signed off, things you don't remember. Like I just don't remember him towards the end of the practice. Once he signed off, he'd let it go by and my OB wasn't putting parameters, but because this placenta had really given us like a lot of health, I would say like almost day one, she was very concerned that it was showing signs of calcification. So she did not want to go past 3090 and that was part of our grand negotiation.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[28:50] So if you go into labor spontaneously by around 39 weeks, then VBAC, but if you go longer, then is it induction or is it automatic cessation?
Natalie Richeimer[29:02] No, induction. She was very willing to try, but she was like, you need to be induced. Like I'm not comfortable. I don't think she wanted even me to go past 38 weeks at the time, but like I'm Jewish and I celebrate a holiday called Passover. And I was like, I can't do it over Passover. It's too crazy for me, my in-laws, blah, blah, blah. So I was like, no, no, no. Like we've got to wait until after Passover. So I think like we kept kind of kicking the can down the road at 38 weeks. We wanted you to anyway. That's what she kept saying to me. She's like, if it was real serious, she'd make you go down. She'll give you more time. It's not real serious,
[29:41] which was like, again, it's very empowering for me because like I said, I have very blind trust in doctors and hearing a different perspective and giving you the words to question and then understand was very helpful to me.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[29:57] All right. Let's take a commercial break. When we come back, we'll find out how things went. Welcome back. We're talking to Natalie Richheimer after a traumatic first birth, Caesarean, the real emergency C-section. She went into her second birth hoping really hard for a vaginal birth after Caesarean, so much so resigned to the fact that if it was another C-section, it was going to be her last baby. And a lot of little things came up. Placenta previa could have ruled her out, but then the placenta moved. Partial placental abruptions were a problem, but then they eased up and COVID moved in. But nonetheless, her doctor and MFM pretty much signed off on a V-back
[30:47] as long as the baby were to come by 39 weeks. Natalie, how did it go down?
Natalie Richeimer[30:52] So there we were at 38 weeks, and we were in, I felt like a lawyer, prime negotiations. And we got to a point, it was prior to the first, the last part of the holiday. And she was like, listen, she was like, I am not letting you leave here until we schedule this induction. And I was like, fine, fine. Let's schedule it for Friday. The holiday's over. On Thursday night, I can drop my kid off at my in-laws because I have another child at this point. Look, let's schedule for them. And she was like, fine, deal. But like, you are, you know, that's no more. Like we can't do this anymore. That I think would have been like right around the 40 week mark
[31:32] and called the V-back doula. And she was like, you have three days to get into labor on your own. Do everything on my list. Like everything. You know, she was very talkative. She was like, if it comes to it, right? Like if you're induced, you're not going to be induced to zero this time. We're going to do other things. And you're going to make it so that your body is, you know, ready to roll. Starting 36 weeks, I was doing all the things she had told me to prep my body for labor. So again, very different than my first time around. And important to mention that at that appointment, my doctor was like, I can do a membrane sweep also. It was like two centimeters.
[32:07] And I was like, you know what? Membrane sweep, cool. Like if you're going to induce me anyways, and this will give me a chance, let's do it. And I, you know, left her office on Tuesday and went into labor. Now it's really on Wednesday. So all that good stuff kind of paid off. My labor was, I would say, not difficult. Like just, you know, just regular. I was at home and my first labor was 38 hours. So I was like, I have so much time and I hate the hospital. I am only going, I remember times to my husband, I'm only going to go to the hospital if I see blood or water. Like if my water breaks or if there's bleeding, that's when we'll go, but otherwise we're staying home.
[32:47] And it was the pandemic. And I just remember we were like eating dinner. He was eating dinner. I'm like, I couldn't sit. I was like, did you want to eat? I was like, go away. I can't, I can't talk to you. And I'm like, there's no way, like I'm in active labor because I'm like, I've only been doing this for like three and a half hours. Like, no, there's no way. And he called, he's like, let me call the doctor. Calls her. She's like, the way she's sounding and the timing of the contractions, you need to leave now or you're going to deliver the baby. So we were like, oh, if you don't, let's go to the hospital. This is April, 2020. This is like height of the pandemic.
[33:24] We get to the hospital. At the time, the policy was like, the partner had to wait in the parking lot until they were being like admitted, like not triage, which was the thing. So we get there. And I just remember I was like, I was like, oh, I was like, I can like talk and I'm being triaged. And they're like, what's your religious preference? I was like, I don't know, but I feel like I have baby. Like, and they're like, oh, honey, this is a VBAC. You're going to be here for at least 12, took 24 hours. Like it's going to be long. And I'm like, I don't know. And then finally someone comes in to check me and they're like, oh, she's seven and a half.
[33:59] We need to admit her now.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:01] Well, that must've been a good piece of news.
Natalie Richeimer[34:04] It is and it isn't. It is and it isn't. Cause I was like, what? I was seven and a half. She was like, you're going to have a baby like now. And I was like, oh, I need drugs. I'm like, I can't do this. And she's like, it's too late for drugs. Like you're having this baby. You're moving quickly. My husband's in the parking lot because the security guard had changed security guards. Didn't see him enter with a pregnant lady. Thought he was like trying to storm the building. And then the nurse had to literally go down there and was like, you need to let him in. His wife was about to have a baby. He came in. He was there during, you know, the pushing and the lost parts.
[34:35] Like from when I was admitted to when I had my son was 45 minutes. So it was really fast, really fast. And I had me a beautiful baby boy, nice healthy weight, which was crazy. His placenta, but clearly his placenta was doing what it needed to do. And even with the craziest of circumstances had the most really magical birth.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[34:57] And unmedicated at that. So Vibhaktula got her her way. What was the moment like when the baby came through you being so present?
Natalie Richeimer[35:08] It's funny. I don't know if I use the word present because anyone who's birth naturally, it's like very out of body, but it was like the most empowering healing thing that I've ever done. Having had so much anger and distrust towards my body for so many years, seeing what my body could do for me and seeing how my body, you know, even in the hardest of circumstances without placenta and all the other jazz, delivered me, literally delivered me a beautiful healthy little boy. It was like the best thing in the world. And like not feeling cloudy with paid medication and being able to hold him and being able to walk after where I was just like, this is awesome.
[35:48] So like where have I been all my life? Like I'm a new person. I am reborn. It was all the things.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[35:56] So many things that you went through. I'm just thinking about with the surprise fertility journey and early miscarriage and pregnancy that, you know, you felt old maybe because you were at it for a few years already. And in your circles, people do start having babies pretty young. And then that really traumatic birth experience and really the courage to get pregnant and do it again and all the little hiccups along the way. Even though you said it quickly when you're like, yeah, and then the baby came out and I was like filled with all sorts of feels. So I can't imagine what it was like for you. Congratulations Mazel Tov. Exciting that you did it again
[36:37] and had another V back. So does that mean that the shop remains open?
Natalie Richeimer[36:44] I'm like very eight weeks postpartum. I don't think about having another baby too. So now, like I said, my husband said to me, he's like, you didn't have enough to see section. That means, you know, if the rule is, I was like, yeah, I know, but not now.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[37:00] How did these experiences change your work?
Natalie Richeimer[37:04] Listen, I think it's changed the way we've talked you and I together about how I see it in medicine a lot from a patient perspective, the feeling of loss of control and the loss of autonomy. It's something that I experienced, you know, even with me being a tenacious, really loud mouth aggressive person for a V back, even I experienced that when I went, you know, for this last baby for pretty much all three boys. So when I look at patients, I think like I am, I would say staunchly an advocate for autonomy, making sure that they feel empowered to make choices. I am not being directive in my care and really giving them good information, not just saying, do this,
[37:44] but explaining why this is something I'm recommending and respecting their choice to decline and not demonizing people for choices that maybe I don't understand, but work for them.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[37:56] Do you think those would have been harder for you, elements harder for you in terms of patient care had you not had these personal experiences?
Natalie Richeimer[38:04] This is such a good question. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know. I think the experiences I've had have shaped me into a really, what I think is a really good provider, and I don't think I would be the same. I think my view of obstetrics is also very different. You know, my area of specialty in genetic counseling is reproductive, so I see people who are pregnant are trying to get pregnant. A lot of empathy for people who are going through fertility processes because I've been there. I also have a lot of empathy for people who are going through a pregnancy that isn't going the way they planned because that was, I would say, three out of three of my pregnancies
[38:41] didn't all go the way I planned and just holding space for that. I don't know if I could be the same person without having gone through what I went through.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[38:49] With everything you've gone through, and, you know, I get somewhat of your insight from personal experience and professional experience, like, is there a takeaway piece of advice you would give to people on the pregnancy journey?
Natalie Richeimer[39:04] Yeah, I mean, two pieces. The first is for all my VBAC mommies or attempting to be VBAC mommies because we are a special group, we are a special unicorn group of people. People tear people down a lot who are trying, again, this has been my experience. Hopefully everyone has had different experiences than me, but people tear them down a lot and you face a lot of adversity to just be given the chance. That's the problem. Stay strong, find people who empower you, like people who've done it successfully, and listen to those people. Surround yourself with positive energy and know that you can do it and you should be given a shot like everyone else.
[39:42] To those who are just on their own pregnancy journey, you know, it's similar to with the VBAC community. Really knowing what you want, especially if it's your first pregnancy, and really figuring out how am I going to get there? So I want an unmedicated birth. What does that mean? How do I prepare myself? I think one of the biggest problems with my first birth was that I had wanted these, you know, lofty things like a vaginal birth and unmedicated, and I was not given the tools by my doula, by my OB, but really anyone on how to achieve that. And, you know, it's like breastfeeding. People are like, it should come naturally and it's hard for some people.
[40:20] And, you know, I took a class at Cedars. I did all the things. I checked things off on the list, but, like, I didn't have any pain management techniques. I didn't have any idea what labor looked like. And so, like, educate yourself and empower yourself and, like, also don't be scared to say no because it's your body and you're the only one that walks home with it at the end of this experience. No one else.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[40:40] Did you end up listening to One Way or Mother?
Natalie Richeimer[40:42] I listened to part of it. I'm not all the way through yet.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[40:46] I don't want to ruin anything. Don't sweat it. That's our sister podcast. Season one is, in fact, a VBAC story. All right. Natalie, thank you so much for sharing your powerful and deeply personal journey. It's a journey from trauma to transformation. And your story's a reminder that birth isn't just a medical event. It's a pivotal moment of identity, of trust, and of growth. And each one was like that for you in different ways. I really appreciate you sharing. Where can we find you online?
Natalie Richeimer[41:22] You can find me online at lots of brotha. It'll be posted in the show notes, but that's my Instagram handle. And feel free to follow me. The account is private, but, you know, accept you if you, you know, want to follow, typically. So, yeah, feel free to connect if you're a VBAC person as well.
Dr. Elliot Berlin, DC[41:40] Thanks so much. And at home, thanks for listening. If this episode resonated with you, please share it. Leave us a five-star review in the app and explore more empowering content at informpregnancy.com and on our streaming platform, Inform Pregnancy Plus and our other podcast that we just mentioned, One Way or Mother, you can find all of it from informpregnancy.com.
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